Thank you stonewall - now I know who to avoid

[Kit19]

136 businesses come together to support corporateWall sorry stonewall on trans ‘rights’

Like everyone on fwr I fully agree trans rights are human rights but what they are not is women’s rights. They are reserved for biological women

Also they must be rattled if they’ve got the city bods on their board to do a ring/email round to do a show of support

Wales looks pretty woke - now I find that very surprising. Are Labour controlled areas being advised to go woke (how's Keir going to take that). UCL I would expect to be there and to be TWAW for years into the future. Can't see anything much in University terms. Keele is there, no idea why, perhaps they're looking for extra advertising

From what these employers have to do according to Stonewall

1. Find out the facts

The first step is to make sure you are educating yourself – so be sure to learn about trans identities and experiences.

Ok then, let's visit the link they provide -

How do you know you’re trans?

Many people know they’re trans from a young age. Some trans people might not have the language or understanding of what it means to be trans until later in life. But it is always something innate and absolutely core to your sense of self. It’s not something that’s a fad, a 'lifestyle choice' or something that comes and goes.

It is an essential part of who you are that can’t be changed. If you aren’t recognised as being the gender you know you are, it’s extremely damaging

That's not really answering the question at all is it? It's like a politicians answer.

But what about public toilets?

Trans people can and have been using the toilets that match their gender for years without issue. This is another media-generated ‘debate’ (yeah, because God forbid women fucking debate anything, eh Stonewall?) , and it’s actually having a negative effect on many cis people too; people whose appearance doesn’t fit the stereotypes of male or female are increasingly being challenged for simply going into a public loo.*

(notice that it's all nice and simple according to them and they address none of the complexities or dangers that go along with all of it).

Having facilities that everyone can use – toilets and changing rooms with private space – is really sensible and many businesses and institutions have been taking that approach without incident for a long time now. (and how much did female employees actually get to have a say in all of this? A real say that didn't involve them being shamed, or being at risk of being 'educated' or being sacked if they didn't agree?)

@highame

Wales looks pretty woke - now I find that very surprising. Are Labour controlled areas being advised to go woke (how's Keir going to take that). UCL I would expect to be there and to be TWAW for years into the future. Can't see anything much in University terms. Keele is there, no idea why, perhaps they're looking for extra advertising

It might look like it, but that's because the centre of power is in Cardiff, which is very studenty. I wouldn't say the gulf is as big, but it's not representative of Wales in the same was as London is not representative of England. It's a lovely city, but the Welsh Assembly Government, including Plaid and Labour have totally lost touch with what most Welsh people want or feel strongly about (which is not the same as what a lot of English middle-class students want).

It's not actually the organisation signing up to this at all is it? It's the Diversity and Inclusion officer that's signed up.

My employer has just decided to go for the Stonewall approval badge bollocks...whatever it’s called.

Does anyone know what we can expect? I will likely get dragged into it because of the dept I work in.

I managed to serve ‘trans awareness’ training. I’m fucking dreading this.

I wonder if, in event of a national emergency and military call up, the Army and Navy would be happy with able bodied men self ID-ing their way out of conscription.

ffs even the British army! How would that even work?

@janetmendoza

ffs even the British army! How would that even work?

Ah, now I remember the army announcing that they were changing their rules so that women could serve as front line infantry. Shortly afterwards (shortly as in less time than it would take to go through training) they announced they were delighted to welcome their first ever serving front-line infantry woman... who was, yes, you've guessed it, trans. So the "first woman ever" spot was already scooped before any woman had had enough time to train for the job.

@Kit19

It’s all part of sustaining stonewall’s wider lobbying

‘Look at who supports us, would these companies support us if they thought we were saying the wrong things around transgender issues? Ergo we are not wrong on transgender issues and women can give up their spaces’

"Look who supports us" in list form isn't much of an argument, unless the people in question have some particular moral or intellectual authority, such that just their name alone is a signifier of quality in itself.

Sometimes that can work to some extent, eg signatories to that Harpers letter. But then you need an actual concrete message to go with the list of name, not pablum like "trans rights are human rights" or "make progress for the trans community".

But when it's a list of companies??? Basically that means you've got 100 anonymous people from HR/marketing departments to anonymously stick the name of their employer on some non-statement. And why should that signify something to me?

Even if you are invoking the name of an individual, that's not sufficient. We're not just saying "I JK Rowling", we're urging people to go and read what she's written. I look forward to the essays from the companies on this list...

Find out the facts

If these companies did even the smallest amount of fact finding they would be showing Stonewall the door.

Well that is terrible DianasLasso.

@EarthSight

From what these employers have to do according to Stonewall

1. Find out the facts

The first step is to make sure you are educating yourself – so be sure to learn about trans identities and experiences.

Ok then, let's visit the link they provide -

How do you know you’re trans?

Many people know they’re trans from a young age. Some trans people might not have the language or understanding of what it means to be trans until later in life. But it is always something innate and absolutely core to your sense of self. It’s not something that’s a fad, a 'lifestyle choice' or something that comes and goes.

It is an essential part of who you are that can’t be changed. If you aren’t recognised as being the gender you know you are, it’s extremely damaging

That's not really answering the question at all is it? It's like a politicians answer.

But what about public toilets?

Trans people can and have been using the toilets that match their gender for years without issue. This is another media-generated ‘debate’ (yeah, because God forbid women fucking debate anything, eh Stonewall?) , and it’s actually having a negative effect on many cis people too; people whose appearance doesn’t fit the stereotypes of male or female are increasingly being challenged for simply going into a public loo.*

(notice that it's all nice and simple according to them and they address none of the complexities or dangers that go along with all of it).

Having facilities that everyone can use – toilets and changing rooms with private space – is really sensible and many businesses and institutions have been taking that approach without incident for a long time now. (and how much did female employees actually get to have a say in all of this? A real say that didn't involve them being shamed, or being at risk of being 'educated' or being sacked if they didn't agree?)

Does it say what this is for? Is this just the supporting trans’ rights part or is this being a Stonewall Champion? Are there any LGB or I etc parts too?

I'm not sure this is about PR so much as them worried about staff and impact on the economy. If Truss were to strengthen the law to make it easier to exclude trans people from toilets/changing rooms etc it would put the UK very much out of step with the rest of the Western world. They will have seen how a similar bathroom bill almost bankrupted North Carolina with cultural boycotts that involved major gigs being cancelled, sporting boycotts and tech companies pulling out (paypal pulled a major new facility because of the bill). International tech and media companies might feel it would cause problems bringing trans employees over to the UK for example, or inviting trans people from overseas. It would also impact on tourism with the UK slipping down LGBT friendly rankings and trans people (and by extention their friends and families) would be unlikely to come here, which given the explosion in diverse gender identities amongst the young could prove pretty devastating for some sectors. I very much doubt they give shit about trans people that much, and it's arguably not even great PR at the moment, it's just pragmatic concerns about the bottom line at a time when things are already economically fraught. I guess that the FT's thinking too.

A company 'supporting' Stonewall doesn't necessarily mean anything. Many companies would sell their own families if it upped the shareholder payout. Does anyone really think that Budweiser, for example, gives a shit about trans people?

Some of the companies listed are laughable: Cool Trans; LGBT+; Mermaids; Pink News; Trans Knowledge; Trans UK Radio, etc. Of course they're going to sign, they're TRA pressure groups.

The most noticeable absence to me is Apple. MS and Google are both there, but the biggest of them all, with a gay CEO, have pointedly not signed up.

@EyesOpening Unless they have detailed documents that only for the eyes of the employers, then what they want can be seen on their website. The first step is that you should educate yourself, so I followed the link and that's what I found. I find the omission of counter arguments to their views to be dishonest. Employers are led to think this is all simple when it's not.

Sainsbury’s and vodaphone

FFS this list has pissed me off. Fucking Stonewall.

Trans women like my partner are not lying in wait in bathrooms trying to rape you.

That would be more reassuring if Twitter wasn't full of trans activists threatening to rape and kill women. If you want to persuade women you're safe, perhaps not the best way of going about it?

A company 'supporting' Stonewall doesn't necessarily mean anything. Many companies would sell their own families if it upped the shareholder payout. Does anyone really think that Budweiser, for example, gives a shit about trans people?

Yes this. I don't think the thinking behind this is more sophisticated (in most instances) than "We need a PR win here, people. What's hot in social justice at the moment? Yeah, the BBC and Guardian are all over trans rights at the moment. BLM would frighten the horses. Clearly we don't want to engage with actual social justice, like poverty, because our share holders do like their dividends... Trans rights it is then..."

By the same token I don't think you can read anything much into the companies that haven't signed up. They've just jumped onto a different bandwagon.

@Winterlight

I wonder if, in event of a national emergency and military call up, the Army and Navy would be happy with able bodied men self ID-ing their way out of conscription.

Now that's an interesting question. In the US, all men have to register for the draft (Selective Service) at 18. I wonder what the rules are for males identifying as women.

@Escapeplanning

It's not actually the organisation signing up to this at all is it? It's the Diversity and Inclusion officer that's signed up.

I was going to say exactly this! I suspect it's whoever they've hired in one of these diversity roles that's taking them along this trajectory. I doubt anyone would object as they'd seem like the "baddie"!

It's only after reading up and delving deeper that the ordinary person will understand the implications.

Was shocked to see Imperial College on there. The others not so much. I was going to go back to O2 so this has been timely and helpful

Both mine and DH's employers are on there :(

RoyalCorgi 😆😆😆😆