Diva magazine exclusively for TRAs now

[SapphosRock]

I’m pretty hacked off about it truth be told, especially since I’ve supported Diva and bought pretty much every issue since I came out as a lesbian in the late 90s.

I’m a member of Diva’s online community and someone recently posted about Nicola Adams (Olympic world champion boxer, used to identify as bisexual, recently came out as a lesbian).

Nicola has made the suggestion of having a separate category in boxing for trans women to compete with one another as she doesn’t believe it is fair for them to compete in the female category. Thread on it here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3834912-Olympic-Boxing-champ-Nicola-Adams-calls-for-transgender-athlete-categories-for-fairness#94290477

This seems completely fair enough, and there is an exception in the Equality Act for exactly this reason, to make women’s sport fair.

As Diva is (was?) mainly a place for lesbian women, quite a few in the online community spoke up in support of Nicola Adams.

A trans woman who is a prominent poster in the group wrote a long and detailed post to ‘educate’ everybody why it is completely fair for trans women to compete in female sport. Point 5 of her post states biological sex isn’t binary. Anyone who didn’t agree is a transphobe.

This was backed up by Linda Riley (Diva publisher) who compared debating the right of trans women to compete in female sport to debating ‘all lives matter’, not so subtly suggesting that questioning the fairness of trans women in sport is as bad as racism.

DIVA MAGAZINE IS OPENLY CLAIMING WOMEN ARE BIGOTED FOR QUESTIONING THE FAIRNESS OF A MALE BODIED PERSON HITTING AND PUNCHING A FEMALE BODIED PERSON IN SPORT.

I have absolutely no problem with Diva welcoming trans women into the community but centering trans activism like this is madness. I know I’ve posted here in defense of Diva before when other lesbians expressed concerns about the TRA / MRA ethos. Apologies I didn’t listen and feel free to tell me ‘I told you so’.

As a side note, the prominent TRA in Diva’s online community made Diva’s Pride Power list. Olympic world champion lesbian role model Nicola Adams did not.

www.pridepowerlist.com/the-list-2020.html

@NonnyMouse1337

Unfortunately, centering trans women is the end result of "be kind" and TWAW mantras. It's not deliberate - it comes from a good but extremely naïve place. It ends up being the inevitable conclusion when a group of males are considered "more oppressed" and important than women and that we women must always bear this in mind. We end up making all the concessions, giving up our spaces, our sports, our awards, our refuges, our rights, even the very words used to define us.

I have seen so many groups on Facebook decimated as this crazy phenomenon spreads - so many women kicked out or banned, and many more others stay but go silent. The activists in the groups high five one another and revel in how progressive they are, while women have ever diminishing spaces to talk freely and defend their rights, especially lesbians.

I'm sorry you have found your online community turn into a hostile space for women defending the utterly rational and sane idea of single-sex sports. I know you've tried to hold on to a middle ground, especially in previous debates on Mumsnet. It really is all or nothing for the trans activists. Us women here might come across as 'heartless bitches' to some but that's because many of us have come to realise that we can't afford to concede any more ground otherwise our rights and the rights of future generations of women are utterly lost.

I totally support a female only lesbian magazine. No reason why women can't come together to start a new publication. Fuck the trans activists. Women gained their rights before through sheer bloody mindedness and hard work, and we can do it again.

Such an important post. I weep for all the young women who are being forced into relationships they don't want by the mantra "be kind" and I mourn the loss of the thriving lesbian sisterhood that thrived in the 70's - 90s. Thank you Sapphos for being open about what is happening.

Sapphos - is there anything that the posters on here could have said or done to help you reach these conclusions sooner? Or do you think that only witnessing the actions of the TRAs first-hand could prompt your re-think?

I hope you don't mind me asking. I'm only doing so because it might help posters on here communicate better in conversations with people IRL.

I'm sorry, Sappho. It's like a bucket of cold water over the head (at least, I found it so). With any luck, though, along with the cold, hard light of day, you'll also get the relief of that niggling cognitive dissonance finally being laid to rest.

My sincere admiration for 1. arguing what you believed in a place where you could reasonably expect much debate and pushback and 2. being so honest.

I hope you can find other lesbian spaces that centre women and are supportive, rational, and open-minded.

Wow I wasn't expecting everyone to be so nice. Thank you

is there anything that the posters on here could have said or done to help you reach these conclusions sooner? Or do you think that only witnessing the actions of the TRAs first-hand could prompt your re-think

That's a good question. There are lots of intelligent and thoughtful posters on here that I've sometimes clashed with but have often made me question if I'm right or not. To be honest when people shared TRA screen shots about the cotton ceiling I just thought they were deliberately seeking out content to prove a point. Sharing RL experiences resonated with me more.

Sorry it took me so long to understand

Aw sapphos. ❤️❤️

but have often made me question if I'm right or not

I think just about everyone has felt this way...one way round or the other 😀

It surely can't sit right with Linda Riley to deliberately overlook a brilliant black lesbian sports woman for daring to have her own opinion?

I suspect Linda Riley feels the same way about brilliant black lesbian lawyer Allison Bailey who also dares to have her own opinion, Sappho. Anyway, welcome to the club!

Sorry it took me so long to understand

Got that t shirt I think pretty much most women here have. I was happily bumbling along being LGBT+ positive in all ways until a RL situation blew up in my face and I read around thinking 'what?! This can't be right. Is it me? What don't I understand here?'

If values would work both ways equally, if it was genuinely a case of mutual respect and live and let live, there would be very little problem if any.

Honestly i didn’t think you were posting in good faith. You seemed to get so close and then ‘be nice’ would overide.

I don’t blame you though because it really is a head fuck and it grinds against years of viewing yourself to be accepting, tolerant, progressive and kind to minorities. (You still are all these things obviously).

It must be really hard to go against your community (especially when you realise you’ve been cuckoo’d out) it’s like ultra Wendying! Especially especially when the wider world thinks they’re supporting LGB when they support TQ.

Just out of interest- if someone did post on that forum pointing out the Nz weightlifter that’s winning international competitions for example. (I mean - they’re not even being factually correct ffs!). Would they be banned?

Just out of interest- if someone did post on that forum pointing out the Nz weightlifter that’s winning international competitions for example. (I mean - they’re not even being factually correct ffs!). Would they be banned?

Yes I imagine so. It would make the trans members of the group feel 'unsafe'.

I'm wondering how many other lesbians /bi women in the group feel the same as me. Obviously we're not allowed to voice any dissenting thoughts so it's hard to tell.

Quite sinister really.

Sharing RL experiences resonated with me more.

This is interesting. I've been trying to isolate when I [decided I was no longer a trans ally] as it sort of snuck up on me gradually, also once I consciously got an inkling something was "off" with the trans movement I started doing a lot of research and got rapidly more horrified.

But I think the "P*ak Trans" threads on Reddit with hundreds of women sharing their own experiences was a definite tipping point for me. There were too many stories that were all different, but there were a lot of commonalities with particular very alarming patterns of behaviour. When you pick up on repeating patterns in people's individual stories, it is much more convincing than someone directly explaining those patterns to you.

I suspect it was why Ruth Hunt resigned from Stonewall.

It's interesting to watch someone realising in real time

That happened to me a few years ago. I went from full on "why is everyone being so nasty" to "wtf, that's it, I've had enough" overnight.

SapphosRock, it's all downhill from here!

Sapphos

I'm glad you've seen it, now. But I'm sorry you had to. Genuinely. I wish no one had to.

Diva will fall into self-serving irrelevancy because actual lesbians will stop buying it.

^ this.

Like everything else it's not about the space, or in this case, the publication. It's about the women in the space, and the women involved in the publication.

If women aren't there, it will no longer be desirable.

To be honest when people shared TRA screen shots about the cotton ceiling I just thought they were deliberately seeking out content to prove a point.

I don't find that stuff terribly compelling either. There are so many crazy people online, you can find plenty of examples of people saying almost anything you could imagine. Some random person saying something nasty or weird isn't necessarily reflective of much, or even a bunch of them, because there are so many overall.

@SapphosRock

Just out of interest- if someone did post on that forum pointing out the Nz weightlifter that’s winning international competitions for example. (I mean - they’re not even being factually correct ffs!). Would they be banned?

Yes I imagine so. It would make the trans members of the group feel 'unsafe'.

I'm wondering how many other lesbians /bi women in the group feel the same as me. Obviously we're not allowed to voice any dissenting thoughts so it's hard to tell.

Quite sinister really.

And yet female boxers having to fight transwomen really are unsafe. It's ludicrous.

I wonder if you'd be allowed to state that you disagree with the no-debate stance but that you will respect Diva's rules (or something). Might that encourage other doubters to contact you privately?

Thanks all. I never bought into the sport argument as I thought it was so clearly unfair. I'm amazed that so many gay / bi women are prepared to throw female athletes under a bus. See example.

Socrates11 it was originally written by a TRA in the group then re-shared by Linda Riley (Publisher) with strict instructions that this was Diva's ethos and it's not up for debate.

That pic is dire Sapphos. You women, just work harder to beat the mediocre males who have the biological advantages.

It is quite like the PhD researcher saying that because to fit in most transwomen starve themselves to look like models they simply don’t have any of those advantages anymore. It is so totally like they are now on the level of women instead of being starved males with the retained advantages including muscle memory.

And let’s not forget they might also have had far better and more coaching and experience. So no, no advantage even after ‘t’ reduced. ......

@SapphosRock

Thanks all. I never bought into the sport argument as I thought it was so clearly unfair. I'm amazed that so many gay / bi women are prepared to throw female athletes under a bus. See example.

Jeez. I don't even know where to begin with that screenshot. Did a woman write that?

How is it possible that some people have become so far detached from the reality of physicality between the sexes?

Also the one thing I hate about this whole sports debate besides the obvious unfairness, cheating aspect is the way women, including many great athletes, are forced over and over to describe our 'inferiority' to the male body. I know that's a controversial word and not one I'd use normally but that's how it plays out when having to defend against this shit.

I sometimes wonder if this is the sadistic aim of people who push this line of thinking. It reminds me of the MRA/PUA 'negging' crap.

It shouldn't even be a question, it's not something that would ever have occurred in a world that actually respected women and our sport. It's really highlighted to me how much is just paying lip service and that the misogyny runs so deep.

So many people/sporting orgs seem willing to allow women's sport to be destroyed - they seem to think it's enough to have women's sport in name and that it's irrelevant whether there's any women competing in it.

I was properly surprised when I saw who the OP was, don't take this the wrong way Sappho, but you are one of the few staunch trans allies on here whose name I remember.

It must take some guts to have posted on here. Welcome to the dark side.

I imagine you need to do some thinking, It'd be interesting to hear if you think that ultimately there will be a way lesbians/transgender women can come to a situation you are happy with again.

I totally support a female only lesbian magazine. No reason why women can't come together to start a new publication

@NonnyMouse1337

If a crowdfunder is set up to fund a a female only lesbian magazine, I will donate and subscribe to it when it's launched

Here's a thread from April:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3886135-lesbian-visibility-week-2020

I think DIVA magazine has centred TRAs for a while. But I'm glad if you're more able to see this now, Sapphos

Yep OvaHere it's written by a woman. Depressing hey?

The ironic thing is until this week I would happily say I was a trans ally. The trans woman TRA in the Diva group always seemed really nice. Had a few pleasant exchanges with her.

If it was a simple difference of opinion re the sport I could even respect that and agree to disagree.

Forcing every person in the group to agree with the TRA or leave? Nope. Accusing women of transphobia for pointing out simple biological facts? Nope. Deleting any comments that support the view of Nicola Adams, a highly regarded lesbian athlete? Nope. Until TRAs can learn to be allies to women then they've got no support from me.