Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Diva magazine exclusively for TRAs now

252 replies

SapphosRock · 12/09/2020 14:52

I’m pretty hacked off about it truth be told, especially since I’ve supported Diva and bought pretty much every issue since I came out as a lesbian in the late 90s.

I’m a member of Diva’s online community and someone recently posted about Nicola Adams (Olympic world champion boxer, used to identify as bisexual, recently came out as a lesbian).

Nicola has made the suggestion of having a separate category in boxing for trans women to compete with one another as she doesn’t believe it is fair for them to compete in the female category. Thread on it here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3834912-Olympic-Boxing-champ-Nicola-Adams-calls-for-transgender-athlete-categories-for-fairness#94290477

This seems completely fair enough, and there is an exception in the Equality Act for exactly this reason, to make women’s sport fair.

As Diva is (was?) mainly a place for lesbian women, quite a few in the online community spoke up in support of Nicola Adams.

A trans woman who is a prominent poster in the group wrote a long and detailed post to ‘educate’ everybody why it is completely fair for trans women to compete in female sport. Point 5 of her post states biological sex isn’t binary. Anyone who didn’t agree is a transphobe.

This was backed up by Linda Riley (Diva publisher) who compared debating the right of trans women to compete in female sport to debating ‘all lives matter’, not so subtly suggesting that questioning the fairness of trans women in sport is as bad as racism.

DIVA MAGAZINE IS OPENLY CLAIMING WOMEN ARE BIGOTED FOR QUESTIONING THE FAIRNESS OF A MALE BODIED PERSON HITTING AND PUNCHING A FEMALE BODIED PERSON IN SPORT.

I have absolutely no problem with Diva welcoming trans women into the community but centering trans activism like this is madness. I know I’ve posted here in defense of Diva before when other lesbians expressed concerns about the TRA / MRA ethos. Apologies I didn’t listen and feel free to tell me ‘I told you so’.

As a side note, the prominent TRA in Diva’s online community made Diva’s Pride Power list. Olympic world champion lesbian role model Nicola Adams did not.

www.pridepowerlist.com/the-list-2020.html

Diva magazine exclusively for TRAs now
OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
FloralBunting · 14/09/2020 23:07

It probably is because of this thread Sappho. You know as well as I do that not everyone who reads FWR does so with laudable intent, and it's still relatively high profile. It's intensely frustrating that this has become such a powder keg, but the women trying to hold back a vicious tide of threatening misogyny are not to blame for it.

The toothpaste won't go back in the tube now. We've been warning for years on here that pushing this harmful shit will cause a backlash, and it's always been hand waved away. I could weep that we've been cast as nazis for simply pleading for caution, begging to retain the boundaries we thought we had won.

SapphosRock · 14/09/2020 23:09

The Diva community group is private but mumsnet is public

OP posts:
RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 14/09/2020 23:13

The idea that being gay was a phase etc used to be a real problem

Absolutely

If i had a pound for everytime someone told me that ds1 gayness was a phase id have like 20 quid

AND i was told by two different people if i mentioned his future boyfriend/girlfriend and said that being gay was ok THAT I WOULD ACTUALLY TURN HIM GAY

witchesaremysisters · 14/09/2020 23:14

Some brilliant words by Barracker may be worth remembering here. She wrote the following earlier this year on another thread:

Jeez. The insanity that by necessity follows after you decide the law will 'recognise' a female person as 'male', when they are simply...not.

Every aspect of sexed existence, every reference to female or male, girl, boy, woman, man, mother, father, daughter, son, sister, brother, they're all references to our binary, sexed bodies. Each one is ultimately a reference to reproductive biology. They all relate to one another, they all reference sex.

You detach one single reference, and all the others must fall too, or else they conflict.

I'm pretty jaded now. There's little that would surprise me. Sports, prisons, refuges, schools. I expect no end of nonsense. But the one thing that never stops shocking me is that a law was created in the first place that took the word female, which provided recognition of the entire female sex, away from them and created a new, mixed sex, indefinable 'psyche' category that female would mean from that day on. I cannot fully comprehend the enormity of legally redefining all females so that men could be 'recognised' as females. That was the day we failed the female sex, comprehensively, utterly.

I'll never get over it, even when it's repealed, and I'm telling my great grandchildren about the insanity of the early 21st century.

"They literally stopped recognising every actual single woman and girl, every female person. And they told us that we were now all an identity instead of a sex, a psychology instead of a physiology. That was what female now meant. So that men could say they were women. And they did, hundreds of thousands of them did. There was no single word for actual females. We weren't allowed one. Our word was reallocated to men. We had to talk about ourselves as people with cervixes, or menstruators, and we had to agree that biology wasn't the real difference between the sexes, identity was. One by one, every reference to biological sex was replaced in every law with references to identity, until the law had erased any connection with female biology from pregnancy, childbirth, motherhood. Everything became something that applied to both men and women because it was forbidden to have real references to sex.
Stating that only females were women was enough to lose your job, or even be charged with a crime. Failing to agree with a man that he was a woman was enough to be ostracised, censored or threatened with legal action. Men took over women's sports, institutions, groups. Men represented us in every level of society, calling themselves women. There were no words to distinguish ourselves from these men. Everyone could see the female sex were becoming unspeakable people, unspoken of. You weren't allowed to acknowledge our separate existence from male people. Men committed crimes and society said women did it. You could never escape a man because he could follow you into any public space by identifying as female. People were very, very afraid to tell the truth.
Many hundreds of children lost their reproductive organs trying to become the other sex. It was a very dark time."

PotholeParadise · 14/09/2020 23:21

Well, it was nice to feel like I was one of the good guys, and on the right side of history, but... I wasn't. Have you ever watched the Avengers films? Do you remember the one where they all discovered that Hydra had infiltrated Shield? It feels rather like that.

I can't go back. I feel that I wanted to support trans voices to be heard on the stage of public life but other people have used me as a distraction while they gagged other performers. I have to work to undo that. I should have noticed how I spent more time disavowing 'horrible terfs' to support my trans friends than my nice trans friends did to disavow TRAs that campaigned against rape crisis centres. I didn't.

FloralBunting · 14/09/2020 23:29

@SapphosRock

The Diva community group is private but mumsnet is public
I'm sure. And there have been direct links on this thread. Unless each new member has to be vetted, there's nothing stopping anyone joining, is there? Did we mention that people read FWR with bad intent? I'm sure it's come up somewhere.
DeliciouslyFemale · 15/09/2020 00:18

I should have noticed how I spent more time disavowing 'horrible terfs' to support my trans friends than my nice trans friends did to disavow TRAs that campaigned against rape crisis centres. I didn't.

Brilliantly put and I hope that those that are so hellbent I’m supporting the TWAW recognise this.

Goosefoot · 15/09/2020 02:02

@Mollscroll

This is a nice thread and sappho I take my hat off to you. We crossed swords (I've name changed since) on previous threads but I knew you were posting in good faith.

I like your point about sides but I'm afraid I have taken a side. The side I must pick is not women actually. Or oppressed people. But truth. That ultimately is where it does come down to picking a side. I can only really speak the truth and it's not truthful to speak about men becoming women, men being lesbians, sex being a spectrum...

It's not picking the side of truth that leads us to Marie Stopes talking about men and their abortions. Sorry but no. Never, In the history of the world. Ever.

I'm sorry some young women feel such disconnect to womanhood that they want to call themselves men. They are free to do what they want. But they can't force me to believe in something that's not true. I'll be compassionate. But I won't accept being forced to lie.

That's my side.

Yes, this. The truth is by far the most important issue. We can argue all day about who is most oppressed, but in the end it doesn't matter and really isn't the point. The point is that there are some things that are true and some that aren't, and certainly also some things we need to acknowledge as more complicated or difficult to understand. But pretending is a problem with any of them. Pretending something that is fale is true because we think it will help the oppressed is a bad idea.
Goosefoot · 15/09/2020 02:14

@OvaHere

I've never thought TT was a particularly great name actually but it does what it says on the tin - there has been a huge upward trend in young people having some sort of trans identity especially young girls.

There absolutely needed to be some counterbalance to the total affirmation and medicalisation route pushed everywhere else. Let's not forget that 'watchful waiting and talking therapy' was the primary approach of Mermaids prior to Susie Green getting involved.

I've met Stephanie who runs TT and she is an incredibly thoughtful and measured woman who really knows her stuff.

I think there is a bit of a deeper issue though, and it's difficult for people to see sometimes because we tend to assume that psychological issues and problems have a consistent form and it's usually clear how symptoms group together.

That's often not the case though. The way underlying problems manifest can be confusing and it can change. Different cultures have different manifestations, sometimes wholly different phenomena.

We can say with some confidence that some people experience a feeling of opposition to their body, and for some it seems particularly related to sex. But how people understand and talk about that is going to be very much culturally mediated. If "being trans" is seen as how you describe that phenomena then people will use that language, and in fact that cultural trope will shape how they understand their experience and may well shape the experience as well. Not to mention other people may fall into a diagnosis like that from completely different directions that probably have different psychological origins.

With such a new and poorly understood phenomena it's really important to hold the whole idea of the label up to scrutiny. It's not like imagined psychological issues haven't ever caught people up in terrible things.

NiceGerbil · 15/09/2020 02:26

I can't agree with that.

If we can't have a word we can't organise, have stats that back up what we're saying. We become nothing. Everyone knows what a woman is, what a girl is. What female is. What a mum is (in its main and original form, I don't mean to upset women who are mothers through adoption etc).

But every culture on the earth have words for women, girl, mother. I am willing to bet.

Baby mammals know who their mum is, they don't have words. It's a universally totally basic thing across mammalian species FFS.

Now we are to be an identity? Nope.

If we weren't oppressed globally and throughout history, if we were truly equal. In that imaginary world, it might matter less. Or not at all.

Not that's not where we are.

The philosophical debate of what is reality etc is not the main point.

The point is that as a globally historically oppressed group, we are losing the ability to, well. Identify who we need to help. Which is the end game for some.

About 6 years ago on here I said. Ok. Example. schooling in country /area X. No girls go to school. All the boys do. We're all people? 50% of children go to school.

Another region 45% of girls and boys go to school. So they get the priority.

If you talk about boys and girls in X situation. Have you gone and asked all their identities? No? You can't assume. We are told.

Etc etc

Of course it matters..

And I'm sure we've all noticed that the words boy/ male/ man are not verboten

NiceGerbil · 15/09/2020 02:45

I should say it's not the main point but a point.

Because the intellectual wanking over identity, nuances of biology, what really IS a woman. Is only happening because women are lesser. We are supposed to be whatever men want us to be, in that situation and at that point in time.

If it suits one group of men, we are a changeable, ephemeral identity.

If it suits another group of men, our sex and biology is the whole point. Surrogacy. Porn. Prostition. They know who is female. Everyone knows.

The fact that these two groups intersect a lot is an absolute confirmation that this is about male sepremacy.

The female sex does not exist, clownfish, be kind. Anyone who says they are a woman is one.

I want a surrogate. I know exactly who the candidates for that are.

Winesalot · 15/09/2020 08:07

I saw several different people on twitter discussing Diva independent to each other so I think that other members have been talking too. They may have read it here first, or they may already have been members of Diva and are highlighting the issue.

SapphosRock · 15/09/2020 08:56

It's unfortunate timing that the same TRA circulated this yesterday which was shared by Diva, sparking off more 'debate' and immediate deletions of anyone who questioned or challenged it.

It's impossible not to see what's happening here.

Diva magazine exclusively for TRAs now
OP posts:
Winesalot · 15/09/2020 09:01

Challenged it how ? By denying trans rights are human rights - which they are and I have not come across anyone on these boards denying that unless they are trolling. Or stating that trans rights should not erode established women’s rights?

Or diva are simply deleting anything that isn’t cheerleading ?

SapphosRock · 15/09/2020 09:11

People saying that trans fights should not erode established women's rights.

I'm glad people are seeing it and commenting, even if they are getting deleted for speaking up.

OP posts:
SapphosRock · 15/09/2020 09:21

*trans rights

Freudian slip there!

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 17/09/2020 23:26

Sapphos I commented earlier but the more I read the more Shock I am.

It's like a total 180. I suppose having engaged in so many threads here and read so the arguments etc, when you found yourself being ejected from a group important to you on the basis of what you thought were pretty obvious and reasonable views. The whole lot fell into place and you didn't slowly change views you seem to have changed heart totally. Not just on the issue you were discussing when you got that reaction.

So I suppose this is a reason to keep posting on here even if it's rehashing things over and over. For the new people and the lurkers, would you agree?

The other thing is, if people tend to see this as a niche issue, or think be kind. And maybe mostly only change their views when something happens to them around it. And given that women's voices aren't that important when it comes to policy government etc. Especially feminist voices... And that realistically men who aren't involved in this have not much to lose through this and actually quite a bit to gain... How can we get through?

PotholeParadise · 18/09/2020 02:47

They say that if you place a frog in boiling water it jumps out immediately, but if you boile the water slowly, it never notices.

I can't speak for Sappho, but at the same time as MN I have been a longterm member of an online agglomeration that was quite trans heavy, and the water temp of our community has changed a lot over the last 15 years. They're not as nice and rational as I thought they were.

greenteafiend · 18/09/2020 06:27

We need to hear more from people like Pothole who changed their minds. Her contributions here are really helpful and illuminating. Thank you.

PotholeParadise · 18/09/2020 08:58

Aw, thank you, but I think all my posts are a long-winded way of saying 'gemale socialisation, innit'. Grin

PotholeParadise · 18/09/2020 08:58

Or even 'female socialisation'. FFS, fingers.

SapphosRock · 18/09/2020 09:08

I'm similar to Pothole and feel I've been groomed in a way.

The trans activists in the Diva group were lovely for ages. Just being normal and chatting like everyone else then BAM it was hardcore TRA agendas coming from all sides.

OP posts:
PotholeParadise · 18/09/2020 09:31

Yes!

There are a fair few online conversations that are replaying in my head from years back, and the penny is dropping now. The time to say, "hang on, you're bonkers" should have been then.

Along with everything else, I am rethinking the motivations of some members. I mean, how exactly do I know that the people who set the tone way back when were genuinely fellow young adults?

There was one bloke (not around any more) who was influential and purportedly 24, at the top of the age range. Hmm. Was he though?

Melroses · 18/09/2020 10:26

@SapphosRock

I'm similar to Pothole and feel I've been groomed in a way.

The trans activists in the Diva group were lovely for ages. Just being normal and chatting like everyone else then BAM it was hardcore TRA agendas coming from all sides.

This is similar to my experience in the youth group of a certain proselytising church that I went to.

Everyone was really nice, we went on picnics, someone's parents paid for us all to go to a local restaurant for their son's 18th, we sat in the leader's house playing word games and singing to her guitar. It was all really lovely.

Then at the weekly meetings, things started to get more serious. No more fun singing "My God is so BIG" with hilarious actions and bible quizes. We went onto the "testimonies" and the older ones had been to other groups and study sessions. Then they started shouting "Oh Jesus" in the prayers.

And reader, I ran. It was bloody difficult because the leader worked in the breadshop and my mother kept sending me there for bread Blush. For some reason I could not tell her the real reason I no longer went - I don't know why - maybe I felt duped and embarrassed at myself Confused

It was a good life lesson though. There are similarities with other groups of people with a strong purpose, but who need to recruit more people. I see it in a lot of places, varying in its effectiveness.

BatShite · 19/09/2020 02:03

The BLM stuff confuses me somewhat, how on earth they think that trying t use BLM helps them in anyway.

If we are going down that route, then surely anyone with half a braincell would come to the coclusiont that all the TRA rhetoric is 'all lives matter'ing feminism! The whole 'centre transwomen in feminism'..same. Infact, its worse than all lives matter. As far as I know, the all lives matter crowd are not claiming that BLM should focus on them and their rights as white people. But thats whats going on with TRAs Hmm

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.