Transphobic?

[joggingfrog]

Ok so I'm pretty sure this is discussed extensively on here, and I apologise if the topic is offensive or triggering for anyone. I am just not sure where to discuss my thoughts.

I have been more and more leaning towards the idea that women (biologically / cis gendered / born female sex) are special in their own right. I am thinking that trans women - while having their own unique issues - cannot really be classed as the same as biological women. To do so takes away from what it is to have been born, raised and continue to live as a biological woman. We face so many issues physical, cultural, political, sexual reproductive, hormonal and work place issues unique to us and we should be proud to be different and unique in that way.

To keep my experience vague, lets just say that I know someone who is detransitioning and this has made me rethink what it means to be a woman. This person tells me their reason for transitioning was what amounts to a sexualisation of women and I find myself a bit shocked. Being a women isnt somethig we get to try on and play at.

I could go on, but I dont want to discuss an individual as I am proably already being disrespectful mentioning them.

Am I missing something? Pretty much all my views err on compassion and I am usually a progressive as far as my ideology. I know that mumsnet has a "TERF" so I suppose it might be said I am looking for reassurance! I am honestly trying to be open minded over all though amd am really interested in all views. If I am being unreasonable please tell me amd apologies if this is offensive to anyone

Well you're quite correct but I don't know what you mean by 'mumsnet has a TERF' and I wouldn't start using that term if I were you - it's a slur against women who stand up for our rights and by your own admission you'd be considered one too.

I wouldn’t say you’re missing much. A woman is an adult human female born with XX chromosomes & a vulva & without any Y chromosomes. Better not to use cisgendered here though because it’s considered offensive - gender is a load of misogynist social constructs which all women would be better off without!

Welcome to FWR.

Welcome! You’re not transphobic and it breaks my heart that young girls are preferring to transition ( to the danger of their health) than deal with being a woman.

Get a cup of coffee and get stuck in to some of the threads here and you’ll learn that you’re not alone!

Codenamevillainelle, yes thats why I put it in inverted commas, I was being a bit ironic. In general I was dumping all the terms I knew to make myself as clear as possible without knowing the lingo.

Honestly, overall I have not had good experiences so far with the people I have discussed this with in real life. Someone told a friend behind my back that I am a bad parent for believing in biological sex!

I do lots of martial arts and it worries me how many women have no clue how physically vulnerable they are. I think they would be shocked honestly.

It's interesting that you do martial arts and you think most women have no idea of the advantage males have. I wonder if this is to do with Holywood portraying kick ass female characters? I mean on one level it's nice that women aren't seen as victims but it isn't real.

Someone told a friend behind my back that I am a bad parent for believing in biological sex!

Trans people with genuine dysphoria don't deny biological sex. It's an important part of their journey, and they believe that claiming otherwise invalidates their experience.

If biological sex doesn't exist, then trans doesn't either, because there would be no dysphoria. No discomfort at being born in the wrong body. No need to transition.

Its a difficult one. I think lots of men assume they'd be badasses too for the same reasons. But the honest truth is women are so much more vulnerable. Learning self defence is totally possible but the reality is it means training hours and hours a week for years and getting very beat up in the meantime.

I also love to watch movies where the tiny female heroine beats up the huge guys but it is complete fantasy. I dont know what the answer is! My experience is that the men in my life very often arent interested in the movies where the women arent acting like men 🤷🏻‍♀️

^Posted too soon.

I should have elaborated on the 'genuine dysphoria' part.

There's now a 'trans umbrella', which includes cross dressers, drag queens, fetishists. All can come under the definition of trans. It's now claimed you don't even need dysphoria to be trans, which is pretty insulting to people who suffer gender dysphoria.

So what I was trying to say is, it's most likely to be those that aren't suffering dysphoria that are chanting 'no such thing as biological sex.' The kind of people that see woman as a costume, something to put on and take off when they feel like it.

Yourhairiswinterfire, thats what I thought! Tbf this person identifies as female and has no kids so its baffling to me why they are so invested.

@Apollo440

It's interesting that you do martial arts and you think most women have no idea of the advantage males have. I wonder if this is to do with Holywood portraying kick ass female characters? I mean on one level it's nice that women aren't seen as victims but it isn't real.

I have been wondering a lot about this recently. I wonder if this trend for “kickass” women makes it more acceptable to be violent towards women. Or, if it was the beginning of indulging male fantasies of being violent against women in the mainstream culture. Make it more acceptable to beat up a woman and throw her across a room, it is all fine she will get right back up again.

I think some aspects of feminism have done us no favours at all by suggesting biological differences between men and women don’t matter. Also by rejecting, hiding or downplaying the significance of various aspects of our reproductive life rather than owning, valuing and recognising them. I think some feminists tried to hard to be like men instead of acknowledging what we really are physically and the different needs we have. Equal doesn’t have to mean the same.

No OP I do not think you are transphobic, you don’t wish any harm against trans people in your statement that I can see. What makes me a woman is biology and that is what I have in common with other women.

@joggingfrog

Welcome! You won't find any judgement here, I hope.

I entered into this whole debate in exactly the same way as you. I have always been on the liberal, progressive, "lefty" side of things, for want of a better term. But what is happening now, with "trans women are women" becoming a mindless mantra and people (almost exclusively women) branded "transphobic" and losing their jobs etc. for stating basic biological facts is frankly terrifying.

And it's all happened very quietly over the past decade or so, so that you don't realise how far this kind of ideology has progressed until you come up against something that makes you think or look at it properly, as you have found with your acquaintance who is detransitioning. I hope they are well supported, by the way, it's an incredibly difficult journey and this person is very brave and honest to undertake it.

I am very much concerned about the ability of women to discuss their experiences and realities openly without harrassment and silencing. I am very concerned about the prospect of "Self ID", which if passed would allow any male (dysphoric or not, physically transitioned or not) to simply declare himself to be female and be legally recognised as such. I am very concerned about the inclusion of male people in female sports and in single-sex spaces, especially considering that the vast majority of trans-identifying males retain their penises.

And I am very, very concerned about the current treatment pathway for transgender-identifying children and young people, especially young girls. The number being referred to the NHS children's gender clinic has absolutely skyrocketed over the past 5-10 years, and children are undergoing irreversible hormonal interventions and more before they are even of an age where they can legally drive, or get a tattoo, or consent to sex.

Here is a recent short Newsnight exposé on some of the concerns around the GIDS service for young trans-indentifying people.

Thank you for the link amd thanks everyone for the support.

I have a lot of reading to do, but I think as a mother to pre-teens it's quite important to be informed on this tbh

I was just reading on the origins of trans surgery in the 1950's and how it's founders believed in regressive stereotypes about women being assertive and men being effeminate were effectively medicalized and I can't believe that it has now become a mainstream treatment, especially in the case of children under 16.

uncommongroundmedia.com/sexist-science-transsexualism-part-i-benjamin-ihlenfeld-money-ehrhardt/

And I am very, very concerned about the current treatment pathway for transgender-identifying children and young people, especially young girls.

It's terrifying.

There was a post here a while back of a young woman (early 20's), who identified as non binary. They were raising funds to have their breasts removed to 'fit' their identity more.

I had to have a double mastectomy in my early 20's for health reasons. It nearly destroyed me. I became dangerously underweight because of how distraught I was, the constant throwing up. Life changing. The thought of young women flippantly having their perfectly healthy breasts removed to fit an identity is heart breaking. I can't even say what I think of the surgeons agreeing to it, I'd be banned It makes me sick to my stomach.

The younger children being sucked in to this is so sinister. It also raises an alarming question. If they can consent to being basically experimented on at such young ages, what else can they be expected to consent to? We've all seen the attempted normalisation of so called "MAPs."

JK Rowling is right. This is a scandal. And just like with Saville et al, everyone will be scratching their heads and asking where everyone was, why no one spoke up and allowed this to happen. We'll be here with the receipts. By that point though, too many will have suffered. (One is one too many).

I just absolutely cannot comprehend how this is being allowed to happen :( I genuinely can't believe it's real.

Two of my sisters have had mastectomies. To save their lives.

They both say the long term effects of the nerve damage, the scarring, the general numbness is something they were not prepared for.

They both express quite strong opinions about women doing this for what may be quite temporary feelings of not fitting in and even stronger opinions about the “affirmation” pathway that parts of the medical profession have succumbed to.

reading on the origins of trans surgery in the 1950's and how it's founders believed in regressive stereotypes about women being assertive and men being effeminate were effectively medicalized

If you go further back to the 1920s and 30s you’ll find out that the earliest surgeries were completely experimental.

And that procedures and treatments since have rarely since gone through proper peer review or ethical review. Because that would be unethical or something.

I think it’s partly because so much treatment is done privately. Or overseas biz. Ms Green taking her adolescent child to Thailand

They both express quite strong opinions about women doing this for what may be quite temporary feelings of not fitting in and even stronger opinions about the “affirmation” pathway that parts of the medical profession have succumbed to.

It's always non binary females too, that are having healthy body parts removed. What do non binary males chop off to 'fit' with their identity? The answer is nothing. They wear make up and heels one day, and none the next, and that's good enough.

So why is it girls and young women are under this pressure to bind their breasts or undergo mastectomies? A mastectomy should be a last resort. It's not a decision that should ever be made so lightly :( There's also the risk of complications that prevent breast implants being a possibility in the future, should they change their minds.

The blame lies with the surgeons and the pressure groups encouraging it. Do no harm. Aye, unless you can milk £££ out of the patient.

Just before I finish reading the whole thread - I too do martial arts, I am a black belt, and when I mention feeling vulnerable and being weaker than men I am met with indignation - male friends will say ' but you could easily beat me up!!' I train with men and whenever I spar with a man I remind them - I am a woman, go easy. It genuinely hurts if they spar with me like they would another man, and I could get hurt, but some men will sniff and say something like' you can take it! ' or' I haven't hit you that hard! '

It is very exasperating. Even as a black belt, I am vulnerable. We are not like The Black Widow, or The Bride, or Wonder Woman, we are smaller, we are weaker, and doing martial arts really does show me that more than anything else.

Every one should do it!

Many if not all of ‘TERFs’ here have started as allies, we were kind, probably didn’t look much past the rainbow washing until something happened and we thought... hold up, that doesn’t sound right?

Then we dug a little, spoke to few women and slowly began to realise what the fuck was going on.

We don’t hate trans people, much as some people try and paint us as monsters.

We just want women’s rights and safeguarding taken seriously and not shat all over.

It's always non binary females too, that are having healthy body parts removed. What do non binary males chop off to 'fit' with their identity? The answer is nothing. They wear make up and heels one day, and none the next, and that's good enough

Yes, agreed. I wonder if they see Male as the Default Human, and Female as just ‘extra bits’ added on? Thus - remove those ‘extra bits’ and be ‘just a human’.

Having said that, a number of NB girls seem ill at ease with their femaleness, and I guess breasts are an obvious female sign and also liable to be looked at sexually by men, which means unwanted attention. I’ve wondered if it’s that constant attention that some girls are trying to escape.

I haven’t RTFT yet but I too would describe myself as lefty/liberal green (although I’m not really too sure!) but definitely a compassionate person and that’s why I originally saw it from the side of the trans woman: yes it wouldn’t be safe for them in a men’s prison or toilet, and I hate oppression. First and foremost though, I’m a feminist and as soon as it was brought to my attention to think of the consequences to women, that’s when my eyes started opening. I think a lot of it stems from being compassionate but also from living in a time (I would say nowadays but we’ll have to wait to see how it pans out) in the Western world at least, when women have it much better, than they did even 50 years ago, which is good but it’s taken for granted by younger women, I feel

I wonder if they see Male as the Default Human, and Female as just ‘extra bits’ added on?

Yup.

Same old misogyny just dressed up as progressive.

Progress? My arse.