Transphobic?

[joggingfrog]

Ok so I'm pretty sure this is discussed extensively on here, and I apologise if the topic is offensive or triggering for anyone. I am just not sure where to discuss my thoughts.

I have been more and more leaning towards the idea that women (biologically / cis gendered / born female sex) are special in their own right. I am thinking that trans women - while having their own unique issues - cannot really be classed as the same as biological women. To do so takes away from what it is to have been born, raised and continue to live as a biological woman. We face so many issues physical, cultural, political, sexual reproductive, hormonal and work place issues unique to us and we should be proud to be different and unique in that way.

To keep my experience vague, lets just say that I know someone who is detransitioning and this has made me rethink what it means to be a woman. This person tells me their reason for transitioning was what amounts to a sexualisation of women and I find myself a bit shocked. Being a women isnt somethig we get to try on and play at.

I could go on, but I dont want to discuss an individual as I am proably already being disrespectful mentioning them.

Am I missing something? Pretty much all my views err on compassion and I am usually a progressive as far as my ideology. I know that mumsnet has a "TERF" so I suppose it might be said I am looking for reassurance! I am honestly trying to be open minded over all though amd am really interested in all views. If I am being unreasonable please tell me amd apologies if this is offensive to anyone

One thing I've noticed, in my apparent echo chamber of GC people, I've never seen any threats of violence etc from any of them anywhere

@Eyesopening I actually can't believe how sexist the threats are too.

Women (ie women born as biological women) often don't feel they match the societal and hegemonic version of women we should all aspire to.

That's why cosmetic surgery is predominantly taken up by women, because we don't fit the ideals of womanhood that a patriarchal society deems we should. Body dysphoria is rife in women. Our boobs aren't big enough/perky enough, our legs are too fat, our faces are too wrinkled. When a male bodied person decides that they are female, They seem to put so much emphasis on 'looking' female without any idea of what it actually means to 'be' a female.

Body dysphoria is something many women are familiar with. I wanted to be skinny and have no boobs because having boobs meant male attention and I associated male attention with my stepfather. Body dysphoria is not new and it's certainly not reserved for transwomen.

@EyesOpening

One thing I've noticed, in my apparent echo chamber of GC people, I've never seen any threats of violence etc from any of them anywhere

You're talking about idiots on twitter, if that's your benchmark for real transpeople then you are showing your ignorance even more. But don't let the truth get in the way of a good story eh. Enjoy your day.

OP I would urge you to seek out balanced opinions if you are keen to learn.

MN Ps will direct you to a series of their threads with links to sources they consider support their GC argument.

Look at it from both ways.

Over and out.

I’d echo skyliner actually

There are lots of links given by GC posters on this board

Not so many links are posted by people who keep calling FWR an echo chamber...so you’ll have to go and look for those yourself unfortunately

Which is weird because everyone can post and give links

@Skyliner001

OP I would urge you to seek out balanced opinions if you are keen to learn.

MN Ps will direct you to a series of their threads with links to sources they consider support their GC argument.

Look at it from both ways.

Over and out.

Can you suggest some alternatives?

How about for every GC Mumsnetter whose comment you read you seek out a trans person or ally? For a proper balance you’d probably want to find a few angry TRAs with total unwillingness to manoeuvre or listen to anything other than their own echo chambers.

I will not give up woman. It is my biological signature. The trans community can discuss this as much as they like but cis is out of the question.

Balanced opinion is a fine thing, but the trans community now has a gravy train of people who want women's spaces without question, without discussion, without debate. Where's the balance

I dont mind "cis women" so long as biological women continue to get the legal protection they need. There are things that trans women will need that we dont.

I suppose I need to educate myself on whether trans activists are looking for legal protection that is distinct to them and distinct to the needs of biological women. Neither group would benefit from saying there is no difference.

Also, why does it seem to be brushed under the carpet that lots of people detransition? This seems to me again that no one wins from stiffling this conversation.

I guess I came here to ask these questions without worrying about appearing bigotted

Joggingfrog the mantra is trans women are women - for TRA there is no difference. They are exactly the same as women and should be treated as women under the law in ALL circumstances eradicating women’s tight to female only spaces such as prisons refuges & rape services

I think it is utterly sexist and regressive to link the social concept of gender to biological sex.

'Feminine' gender has a whole host of associations that once you link solely to the female sex you are reducing 50% of the population to a stereotype. The same can be said of the 'masculine' gender, a restrictive box that is suffocating for many.

Claiming that being feminine is what makes you a female is really quite offensive to me, and is patently untrue. I feel so sad that this strange ideology seems to be brainwashing young people into thinking this way, when women have fought so hard for so long to break down these stereotypes.

Sex in mammals is dimorphic, immutable and it is not a choice. Whereas gender is a spectrum, it is fluid and may change throughout an individuals lifetime.

Why on earth are we conflating the two?

if that's your benchmark for real transpeople then you are showing your ignorance even more I wasn't commenting about transpeople , I was commenting on the GC people I've seen commenting about this topic. I've seen being in my experience so far, it's just my observation, I didn't declare it to be a universal fact

Hi OP, I have recently been reading Abigail Shrier’s book- Irreversible Damage. It’s about the upsurge in girls identifying as male. It made me tearful at times, and angry, and horrified by what we as a society are doing to girls and young women- the suffering we are inflicting.

I’d really recommend it to you as a starting point. If you look online you’ll see some people are desperate to ensure it doesn’t get read - this is because it is absolutely devastating. No wonder they don’t like it!

I think every parent should read it. I’m even planning to buy extra copies & give them to my friends. Please try it!

@eyesopening are you reffering to something I said?

@yourhairiswinterfire

Someone told a friend behind my back that I am a bad parent for believing in biological sex!

Trans people with genuine dysphoria don't deny biological sex. It's an important part of their journey, and they believe that claiming otherwise invalidates their experience.

If biological sex doesn't exist, then trans doesn't either, because there would be no dysphoria. No discomfort at being born in the wrong body. No need to transition.

Exactly. Put that across very clearly. Bring this up to a TRA though, and its either silence, or 'transphobe!' accusations as they KNOW this is absolutely the case.

Happenedxo she was interviewed by Joe Rogan very recently about her book!

Batshite this contradiction is what has always confused me abd straight answers arent forth coming

It is overwhelming jumpingfrog and it certainly takes a while to process just how far-reaching the implications of the issues are.

As a previous poster pointed out yes definitely look for a balance of views, this is certainly what I've tried to do. The problem has been though that despite my best efforts I'm yet to find the sort of robust, fact-based arguments in support of gender ideology that I've very easily found for the counter arguments. Even posters who describe the 'echo chamber' here fail consistently to provide anything substantial.

One major downfall seems to be that much of the argument rests solely on the adherence to ideological assumptions rather than objective facts. Another problem I've encountered is that the sheer act of questioning something can be perceived as transphobic, meaning a genuine line of enquiry is shut down - I've seen this now a number of times and to be honest it terrifies me.

I consider myself a liberal person who has always embraced inclusion and tolerance. I've never before held a 'controversial' viewpoint and so to discover what I see as a basic concern for women's rights and the safeguarding of children is seen as bigoted and offensive by some is definitely uncomfortable.

You're talking about idiots on twitter, if that's your benchmark for real transpeople then you are showing your ignorance even more. But don't let the truth get in the way of a good story

Actually, there are quite a few examples of people being sacked for speaking up about women’s rights and women’s biological reality on Twitter.

The case of Maya Forstater is well known. Just recently Sasha White was sacked because transactivists reported her private Twitter account to her employers. I myself had an attempt to get me sacked for my feminist political stance on Twitter.

Yet the rape and death threats feminists receive in Twitter are minimised.

Go figure.

[quote joggingfrog]@eyesopening are you reffering to something I said?[/quote]
@joggingfrog no, sorry, it was to this comment "You're talking about idiots on twitter, if that's your benchmark for real transpeople then you are showing your ignorance even more. But don't let the truth get in the way of a good story eh. Enjoy your day." which quoted mine, so I couldn't quote it.

Thank you eyesopening!

@joggingfrog

I dont mind "cis women" so long as biological women continue to get the legal protection they need. There are things that trans women will need that we dont.

I suppose I need to educate myself on whether trans activists are looking for legal protection that is distinct to them and distinct to the needs of biological women. Neither group would benefit from saying there is no difference.

Also, why does it seem to be brushed under the carpet that lots of people detransition? This seems to me again that no one wins from stiffling this conversation.

I guess I came here to ask these questions without worrying about appearing bigotted

'Cis' is an attempt to separate us (women) from the word woman. To make the word multi-purpose, to cloak our experiences in a male experience IMO... because if TWAW then we aren't. 'Cis' in reference to gender categorically asserts that 'cis' women accept and 'identify as feminine' and with the oppressive gender stereotypes that entails; 'cis' in reference to sex asserts that we 'identify as female' not that we are female. This conflation of material reality and feelings will irreparably damage adult human females and child human females opportunity, self-awareness, treatment in society and medicine, and more. To give up our language is to disenfranchise and marginalize every girl/woman behind us and beside us globally to be complicit in our own erasure from history and from life outside of what males deem 'female'. Thusly, being female is a feeling and we as women/girls/females don't have any needs outside of what males deem we need.

I do not subscribe to 'cis' in either context in gender it is a prefix that denotes I am 100% all about being feminine - which couldn't be further from the truth; in sex it denotes that I 'identify as a woman' which I don't because well I am a woman.

If TWAW is the default (that appears to be the current path) as males are the default humans in society, in medicine, in professional endeavors, et al then we born female can't name our issues/challenges as women without including males. I am male exclusionary in my feminism not trans exclusionary.

Yes absolutely there are things TW need and we don't like medical campaigns for: prostate exams, testicular health, penile health, mental health (natural male and synthetic female hormonal changes specific to their body's production and cross-sex hormone regimens), trauma centers, prison accommodation, etc. in order to center them in their spaces and attend to their specific needs. They need this, I want them to have it.

But there are things we need (as well as TM) and TW don't like medical campaigns for: cervix screening, mammograms/physical breast screening, mental health (natural female hormonal changes affect us specifically as our bodies mature and age), research and steps toward endometriosis healing/cure/mitigation, trauma centers, prison accommodation, and so on to attend to our specific needs.

But what I see more and more is that it is okay to say "men" and refer only to male reproductive/sexual/cardiac/mental etc. health, screening, and treatment but "woman" is a dirty dirty word when referring to only female reproductive/sexual/cardiac/mental etc. health, screening, and treatment.

Feminists like myself are working towards women's liberation, to be seen as full humans not subhumans as regarded by those that seek to strip us of our dignity, privacy, safety, and language. I don't identify as a female/woman I was born female and have experienced some of the plethora of terrible trappings of my sex. I don't have a gender.

TW are appropriating the words girl, woman, female, vagina and so on. I have already lived the bulk of my life in a world where men think they get to define me as a woman. As a woman with endometriosis my disease is even being appropriated; the men and women supporting this are spitting in my face while telling me to 'be nice' because if I name my experience and claim my pain and suffering as being wholly female reproductive organ related I am a bigot and deserve to be punished. Because to them I am subhuman and able to be used for their purposes as they see fit and then discard me when they are done using and appropriating my existence.

TRAs aren't looking for equal accommodation or representation, the objective is to smash us into capitulation - to take my experience as a woman and deem it applicable to males. To hand over my words without my consent, to force me into the box that says that I am no more woman than a man who makes zero effort to transition. I am a 'non-man' in their eyes, my body is irrelevant, my experience is irrelevant... then they use my barrenness in illustrating that they are women like I am. If that isn't attempted erasure then I don't know what is.

We have pushed for solutions (third spaces for TW while maintaining our right to avoid male interference in our spaces) TRAs aren't and will only accept full faith in and submission to their dogma.

TW do 100% need their own services and spaces for healing, reflection, bodily functions, safety. dignity, et al but it is not my responsibility to shield them from men nor should I have to give up all of those sex-based protections because TRAs have deemed me 'woman identifying' and the same as TW. We are not the same on any level and both groups deserve to be treated with respect. Feminism is about females/girls/women not males and while I can be supportive they just aren't my focus - I am so sick of being told to center males in my feminism.

OP, I hope my ranty word salad helps you in navigating the issues. Thank you for sticking your head above the parapet and taking the time to see why so many seek to demonize me and my 'ilk'. All the best to you on this harrowing journey.

@FireUnderTheHand that was brilliantly said