Transphobic?

[joggingfrog]

Ok so I'm pretty sure this is discussed extensively on here, and I apologise if the topic is offensive or triggering for anyone. I am just not sure where to discuss my thoughts.

I have been more and more leaning towards the idea that women (biologically / cis gendered / born female sex) are special in their own right. I am thinking that trans women - while having their own unique issues - cannot really be classed as the same as biological women. To do so takes away from what it is to have been born, raised and continue to live as a biological woman. We face so many issues physical, cultural, political, sexual reproductive, hormonal and work place issues unique to us and we should be proud to be different and unique in that way.

To keep my experience vague, lets just say that I know someone who is detransitioning and this has made me rethink what it means to be a woman. This person tells me their reason for transitioning was what amounts to a sexualisation of women and I find myself a bit shocked. Being a women isnt somethig we get to try on and play at.

I could go on, but I dont want to discuss an individual as I am proably already being disrespectful mentioning them.

Am I missing something? Pretty much all my views err on compassion and I am usually a progressive as far as my ideology. I know that mumsnet has a "TERF" so I suppose it might be said I am looking for reassurance! I am honestly trying to be open minded over all though amd am really interested in all views. If I am being unreasonable please tell me amd apologies if this is offensive to anyone

It's clear to me that there are two types of men who claim female identies:

Trans women. What can we do to help them? We need more understanding of the condition; we need to protect them from discrimination and abuse; tolerance ; maybe they need their own facilities, safe spaces and representation.

And men who only have nefarious reasons for wanting to do so, because it gives them access to places they should not be, whether that is to intimidate and abuse trans women or women, or feel some control, or exploit women's rights etc....

And we need a mechanism to know the difference. I think one type hugely outnumbers the other....

escaping constant attention

Yes partly ( from memory)

But also the fact that women change significantly long before men do and in a more drastic way.you mutate from the child as well as male default into something horrid ( to me anyway )

I've read things like this before, but what is the female experience?

I'm straight, white, slim, educated, and able bodied. I've never been sexually abused, or exploited, or experienced overt sexism at work. I've never been a teenage mum. I've never been a refugee. I've I have no idea what it's like to be a woman who is not me, as much as I try to read and educate myself. But nobody tries to tell me I'm less of a woman because I haven't experienced a wide range of diversity 🤷🏻‍♀️

Tbh I've never even met a trans person (that I know of). It seems a bit bonkers to me that everyone has their knickers in a twist over a tiny portion of society that, imo, need love and protection. I have heard of some trans women fetishising aspects of living as a woman. Perhaps there could be a conversation about how that's offensive without complexly demonising them, same way white people are pulled up for appropriating other cultures?

But nobody tries to tell me I'm less of a woman because I haven't experienced a wide range of diversity

What do you have in common with a transwoman that you don't also have with any man or transman?

Ah well perhaps if you had experienced some of the bad stuff and had met a range of trans people then perhaps you might understand

What is the female experience?

Boobs, periods, menopause , or serious medical concerns if they are missing, discrimination due to physical capabilities and weaknesses

What of them are shared with transwomen ?

Pretty much all my views err on compassion and I am usually a progressive as far as my ideology

It comes as a shock doesn’t it

Ds2 said that I (me 😀) am very liberal...except for this

@rabbitwoman

It's clear to me that there are two types of men who claim female identies:

Trans women. What can we do to help them? We need more understanding of the condition; we need to protect them from discrimination and abuse; tolerance ; maybe they need their own facilities, safe spaces and representation.

And men who only have nefarious reasons for wanting to do so, because it gives them access to places they should not be, whether that is to intimidate and abuse trans women or women, or feel some control, or exploit women's rights etc....

And we need a mechanism to know the difference. I think one type hugely outnumbers the other....

Making these kind of distinctions is key to getting out of this mess.

a tiny portion of society that, imo, need love and protection

Yes, we're always being told to Be Kind to those men who threaten us with pretty-pink baseball bats wreathed with barbed wire, who demand access to all single-sex women's facilities, and who traumatise survivors by demanding to 'volunteer' in women's shelters and rape crisis centres.

I disagree its a "tiny portion" of society. The school I teach in has several transboys.

DD (age 14) has a friendship group of 8 females. Two are trans.

In our generation it may be rare for people to bother labelling their identities despite Stonewall claiming most of us are trans but among teens it has exploded. Id find it intresting to see stats on how many people age 11-18 identify as trans.

Tbh I've never even met a trans person (that I know of). It seems a bit bonkers to me that everyone has their knickers in a twist over a tiny portion of society that, imo, need love and protection

You are completely missing the point. This is about the rights of women and girls.

Are you aware of the implication of self-id at all?

Whereby any bloke can call themselves a woman and gain unfettered access to women's safe spaces. Girls safe spaces.

@lockdownlump could you point me towards some reading on the subject please? No problem if not and you think im being lazy 😂

They more you read about what's going on, the more it will shock you. Also, I think you will realise how incredibly religious they are about it. The people who believe in all that crap speak as if they are members of a cult.

Hi jumpingfrog, you sound very much like me a couple of months ago I lurked on these boards for a while before daring to post as I was afraid of accidentally saying something offensive.

I came here very open-minded and with a genuine desire to understand the issues from both sides. What I found were extensive, articulate, rational and evidence-based arguments. Not only from the posters on these boards but also from the many, many links to further reading and research which I've been busy exploring over recent weeks. If you want to start learning about the issue further I would recommend the 'break it down for me' thread as an excellent starting point.

@CodenameVillanelle

Well you're quite correct but I don't know what you mean by 'mumsnet has a TERF' and I wouldn't start using that term if I were you - it's a slur against women who stand up for our rights and by your own admission you'd be considered one too.

This.

Thanks moptop Ive found that thread and Im going to have a look through it now.

I wrote my recent dissertation on how gender stereotypes can be seen to be reinforced by celebrity transwomen who present as ultra feminine. My research was eye opening and a very common theme, borne out in clinical research, as well as document anecdotal studies, was that young boys with rigid father figures (and sometimes mothers but more often fathers) who refused to accept that boys playing with 'girlie' things were an abhorrence. Hegemonic masculinity is one of the biggest causes of the meteoric rise of male transitioning.

Our patriarchal society in effect tells men that if they're not manly enough, that they must therefore be women. Take Caitlin Jenner stating that the hardest part of being a woman is choosing what to wear!

I have the conversation with my teens all the time. You cannot change biology and in spite of TRAs asserting otherwise because a small number of the population are born intersex, women's biology is real and I'll stand my corner til the cows come home. Welcome to reality!

Suggested reading OP: http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

It's long - make yourself a cuppa first!

Thanks everyone! Im a bit overwhelmed tbh.

Very sorry for using the term "terf" in my op, I was just trying to be a little bit humorous but this isnt feeling overly funny right now.

THat's OK @joggingfrog As I tell my students when I teach this stuff, and you can see the scales falling from these bright confident 20 year old's eyes: "It's dark & dangerous knowledge."

I’ve yet to meet a trans woman who claims to
be biologically female. This is why terms like ‘cisgender’ arise, in order to differentiate trans women from biological women.
There is scope to work on this together to create solutions, for example where safe spaces for women remain safe.
Trouble is, it has become a hate filled battlefield where nobody can agree on anything, even when they probably do fundamentally agree on a lot. Mothers are falling out with their children over this. Lines are being drawn and people are refusing to listen. It’s a potential disaster for trans rights and for feminism.

@joggingfrog

Thanks everyone! Im a bit overwhelmed tbh.

Very sorry for using the term "terf" in my op, I was just trying to be a little bit humorous but this isnt feeling overly funny right now.

Funny? Unfortunately this is deadly serious.

And don’t worry, we’re actually quite friendly 😊

@bunters

I've read things like this before, but what is the female experience?

I'm straight, white, slim, educated, and able bodied. I've never been sexually abused, or exploited, or experienced overt sexism at work. I've never been a teenage mum. I've never been a refugee. I've I have no idea what it's like to be a woman who is not me, as much as I try to read and educate myself. But nobody tries to tell me I'm less of a woman because I haven't experienced a wide range of diversity 🤷🏻‍♀️

Tbh I've never even met a trans person (that I know of). It seems a bit bonkers to me that everyone has their knickers in a twist over a tiny portion of society that, imo, need love and protection. I have heard of some trans women fetishising aspects of living as a woman. Perhaps there could be a conversation about how that's offensive without complexly demonising them, same way white people are pulled up for appropriating other cultures?

No point trying to speak sense here. It's a GC echo chamber! 😂😂

@Billi77

I’ve yet to meet a trans woman who claims to be biologically female. This is why terms like ‘cisgender’ arise, in order to differentiate trans women from biological women. There is scope to work on this together to create solutions, for example where safe spaces for women remain safe. Trouble is, it has become a hate filled battlefield where nobody can agree on anything, even when they probably do fundamentally agree on a lot. Mothers are falling out with their children over this. Lines are being drawn and people are refusing to listen. It’s a potential disaster for trans rights and for feminism.

The trouble is why do women need to be renamed in the first place and why are women forced to accept that to be a woman is to accept a specific gender identity?

It's rather odd that some people say that they struggle because they don't feel as if they match the gender society assigned them, but to do so they assume that other people are comfortable with the gender assigned to them. When many people feel that is very wrong and does not actually match them at all

Woman and transwoman would be fine
Dignity and provision for both would be fine