Passenger sues Easyjet after crew asked her to move seat for ultra-Orthodox man refusing to sit next to women

[stumbledin]

I cant believe this is still happening. There have been court cases about this for at least the past ten years which have always support women.
www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/easyjet-sue-luton-tel-aviv-discrimination-orthodox-melanie-wolfson-a9693641.html

Earlier cases:
2015 www.nytimes.com/2015/04/10/us/aboard-flights-conflicts-over-seat-assignments-and-religion.html
2017 www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/el-al-israeli-airline-orthodox-jewish-men-women-seats-flights-gender-segregation-a7804716.html
2018 airline says it will no longer accommodate Orthodox Jewish men who refuse to sit next to women
2020 www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/07/klm-breached-discrimination-law-by-asking-woman-to-move-for-orthodox-jewish-man/

Am I missing something here? I feel like I'm going a bit insane.

No. It's the conflicting idea that you can tell someone can they move because they are so awful you don't want to sit with them, politely.

Reminds me of Dame Edna Everage eviscerating her guests whilst reassuring them that she means it in a kindly way.

For those saying it’s about sexual purity (man not wanting to be “tempted“), It’s not. Men of Orthodox Jewish faith can’t touch unrelated women because they are “unclean” if they are having their period.

This superstition is revolting, utterly dehumanizing, and deeply personal. It is based entirely on an inborn and unchangable characteristic (being female) and should be pushed back against in the strongest terms. I don’t think we should put up with this in a free society any more than we would period huts. Women aren’t aliens.

So what’s the solution? If the men don’t want to sit by a woman they can ask Personnel to have their own seat changed To an open one Elsewhere, and pay a seat change fee if necessary. Same goes if someone is any other kind of bigot Who thinks their seat mate is “unclean”. If the answer is NO they can get off the plane and take the next one. It’s not that difficult.

For those saying it’s about sexual purity (man not wanting to be “tempted“), It’s not.

I really don't care what bollocks it is that makes a man assume he is better than and needs compliance from women. There really is nothing to "understand" or to "respect" in such a view.

@sergeilavrov that's really informative, thank you!

It's just very simple. The EasyJet staff were caught on the hop as weren't fully armed with the legality. If they'd have known 100% that the men's request was illegal, they could just have said 'No, we can't move you as it's against the law to discriminate against other people like this'. Or they could have moved the men miles away from the woman so SHE doesn't have to suffer sitting next to people who consider her 'unclean'.

So what should be happening now is that all airlines should be making this very clear for their staff. And there should be notes when you book your ticket that people can't be moved.

Many female rape and DV survivors will feel more comfortable sat next to another woman. Likewise many muslim women.

The answer to that is surely to ask to move yourself, not to demand that a man sitting harmlessly in the seat allocated to him be moved. Or to book two seats.

It's just very simple. The EasyJet staff were caught on the hop as weren't fully armed with the legality

Given that it's happened before - to Easyjet - I'm going to declare that a pathetic excuse that even our current Prime Minister would consider too weak to use.

@Pobblebonk

Many female rape and DV survivors will feel more comfortable sat next to another woman. Likewise many muslim women.

The answer to that is surely to ask to move yourself, not to demand that a man sitting harmlessly in the seat allocated to him be moved. Or to book two seats.

It is every bit as wrong to ask a man to move because he is a man as it is to ask a woman to move because she is a woman.

A few years ago there were news stories about men being told to change their seats on planes so that they wouldn't be sitting next to children travelling alone.

www.cnn.com/2012/08/14/travel/unaccompanied-children-flights/index.html

@FWRLurker

For those saying it’s about sexual purity (man not wanting to be “tempted“), It’s not. Men of Orthodox Jewish faith can’t touch unrelated women because they are “unclean” if they are having their period.

This superstition is revolting, utterly dehumanizing, and deeply personal. It is based entirely on an inborn and unchangable characteristic (being female) and should be pushed back against in the strongest terms. I don’t think we should put up with this in a free society any more than we would period huts. Women aren’t aliens.

So what’s the solution? If the men don’t want to sit by a woman they can ask Personnel to have their own seat changed To an open one Elsewhere, and pay a seat change fee if necessary. Same goes if someone is any other kind of bigot Who thinks their seat mate is “unclean”. If the answer is NO they can get off the plane and take the next one. It’s not that difficult.

100%, spot on!

[quote TeiTetua]A few years ago there were news stories about men being told to change their seats on planes so that they wouldn't be sitting next to children travelling alone.

www.cnn.com/2012/08/14/travel/unaccompanied-children-flights/index.html[/quote]
That was a different form of sexism, as I recall.

The reason being given was that men were less likely to help a child in an emergency (the subtext being it's a womans job).

I buy extra seats when flying alone due to an attempted sexual assault (dozed off after a 20+hr day of work and travel) during a redeye by a male passenger about 7yrs ago.

As a result I plan, pay extra, and avoid sitting next to men as a result. Additionally, I don't wear suit dresses or skirts on flights anymore regardless of the weather. I don't know how much more I could do to safeguard myself beyond that.

My last flight they moved a man to my row (I paid for all three seats) claiming that the plane was full and it was their error and that they would give me free cocktails to compensate me for the additional $1,500+ I had paid for the two extra seats. I smiled politely and said in an upbeat tone "I paid for this space, this safety, for a reason and I refuse to accommodate the airlines poor planning, sorry for the inconvenience! (big smile)". The man called me a "fucking nasty bitch" and the steward placated him in this oozy dripping voice and flirtatiously said that she would 'take such good care' of him. The steward then proceeded to provide beverage service to the passengers in the row next to mine but ignored my requests for water while they were stopped (didn't acknowledge my presence) - I was treated like a non-entity. All I was trying to do was avoid having some creep try to sexually assault me on a plane again.

If I have to go through all that to avoid being sexually assaulted these men could have done the bare minimum by assuming that their preferences are not 'the default' and that they would have to plan for their own accommodation.

Men should never sit next to an unaccompanied child considering men are responsible for 96% of sexual abuse perpetrated against children. I don't care how great the men think they are, logic dictates that you don't put the most vulnerable people in close proximity to those most likely to abuse. My DH is a gem of a human all-around but because he is aware of the stats as well as his imposing stature he would refuse to sit next to an unaccompanied child for the parents' and child's comfort. Kids love him, he is everybody's favorite Uncle (friends' kids) but he is careful to not engage unknown children for any reason. His self-awareness allows him to pocket his ego and behave as a proper supporter of safeguarding and not make it about his feelings.

I've been on flights with groups of Haredi men several times.
They are universally obnoxious.
The women in their groups sit quietly looking at the floor.
They have been trained since childhood to look through all other people and to utterly disregard other women.
They push, they shove, they blank you.

Luckily on one flight where they kicked off, the cabin crew moved the five of them to the nice safe seats in the back row that do not recline for seven hours

They know that they may not set next to women.
They never travel alone.
They should always take care to book seats that meet their requirements.
Or put up and shut up like the rest of us.

Uuugh, people trying to defend disgusting sexism because its in the guise of religion, or because (in their opinion) its not as bad as racism.

Hope the lady sues and wins.

Sexism and Racism are both equally bad, if anything i suffer more from the former, have less support for the sexism because as a women im expected to put up with/accept sexism as opposed to racism which is socially/publicly condemned. Which i find infuriating.

ListeningQuietly - this has been a great thread, pointing out the obvious sexism in the case, without once veering into racism or attacking a whole group of people.

Not all Haredi males are 'obnoxious'. I used to babysit for Haredi neighbours and they have been lovely friends to my family. They recently came to my mum's funeral and I hadn't seen them in years and they were polite and thoughtful. And yes, I'm a woman they're not related to.

Could we agree that some Haredi men are obnoxious. These particular ones and the ones who have committed similar behaviour on planes.

It's really not helpful to tar all Haredi men 'universally'. It's racist. It's also untrue.

xxyzz
I am sure that as families they are lovely and caring
but in groups on planes I've never yet seen them behave in a manner that did not upset others on the plane (over several decades) .

Sadly all three of the Abrahamic faiths are inherently sexist
and encouraging faith based segregation at school level will not improve things
either for the gentlemen in this case
or for other groups.