Passenger sues Easyjet after crew asked her to move seat for ultra-Orthodox man refusing to sit next to women

[stumbledin]

I cant believe this is still happening. There have been court cases about this for at least the past ten years which have always support women.
www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/easyjet-sue-luton-tel-aviv-discrimination-orthodox-melanie-wolfson-a9693641.html

Earlier cases:
2015 www.nytimes.com/2015/04/10/us/aboard-flights-conflicts-over-seat-assignments-and-religion.html
2017 www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/el-al-israeli-airline-orthodox-jewish-men-women-seats-flights-gender-segregation-a7804716.html
2018 airline says it will no longer accommodate Orthodox Jewish men who refuse to sit next to women
2020 www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/07/klm-breached-discrimination-law-by-asking-woman-to-move-for-orthodox-jewish-man/

@sergeilavrov " El Al, the national carrier of Israel, has a no nonsense approach: if they try and do the seat thing, they’re removed immediately by security"

Well, that's good to hear!

Thanks to the people who answered the question about why the airline is assuming the woman should move. That there's only one of her, making it simpler to move her, is the only even slightly valid point. Otherwise, just ye olde sexism. Figures. It's weird how automatic it is.

@queenofknives

The airline shouldn't even ask. The law is clear. They should have said, no we won't be asking the woman to move as that would be against the laws on sex discrimination.

👌🙏

@sergeilavrov " El Al, the national carrier of Israel, has a no nonsense approach: if they try and do the seat thing, they’re removed immediately by security"

So those guys already knew what they were demanding was not on. But they chanced their arm with 'nice' EasyJet staff who would feel uncomfortable saying no.

They were taking the pxss and should not have been pandered to.

I once asked two Orthodox men in the park to stop smoking next to children's play area where it is banned. They completely ignored me and turned their backs. When a male park services attendant approached them they immediately acknowledged him and put their cigarettes out

Wonder if they would help if you were in some sort of danger.

Don't know but I bet if one of them keeled over with some medical emergency your attention would conveniently be suddenly good enough.

From what I read in this case there was no entitlement but simply a polite request. If I'm wrong and someone was forced to move that's clearly not ok, but that's very different from a polite request with no expectation of a definite yes.

She felt coerced into moving from the aisle seat she’d paid extra for. The air steward offered her a hot drink to move, facilitating the men’s request, resulting in an impasse that meant she felt she had no option to move as her refusal would hold up the flight.

Given the men can’t look at her and will have asked her indirectly via his wife or other female relative, I doubt the request came across as an empathetic, “Hi, I wonder if there’s any chance that you might swap with my friend so we can sit together?”

This is an interesting take on it from a Jewish woman. She doesn’t believe it sexist but she doesn’t approve as it doesn’t sit well with other tenets of Judaism.

www.jpost.com/blogs/generation-why!/ultra-orthodox-male-plight-sitting-next-to-women-on-planes-396902

I suppose if women started asking for any Hassidic men placed in the row in front of them to be moved as they did not want to be near sexist people that might stop the men asking to be moved if placed in a row with women.

@boltzmannbrains the sexist and racist experiences were the same for you but wouldn't necessarily not be the same for me.

Do you understand the concept that individuals experience things differently?
Or do you think all BAME women have to speak with one voice on everything since we all have exactly the same backgrounds, life experiences etc. Oh wait, we don't.

If 3 people hit their thumbs with a hammer Person A might say "that's the worst pain I've ever endured". Person B might say "well actually that was equally as painful as the time I..." and Person C might not be bothered by it at all.

All points are valid based on their own individual experiences. Person B doesn't get to tell the other two that the pain of the hammer blow is just as painful as another type of pain. That was their experience.

If a a man asked me to switch seats because of his religious beliefs I wouldn't find it as offensive or as upsetting if he said instead "I don't want to sit next to you because you are Black" I'm allowed to think that.

I am not downplaying sexism. I am simply stating how I would feel. Personally I would find the request ridiculous and would refuse to move but I would also recognise the man's behaviour is a result of the religion and culture he has been raised under. As a result I wouldn't refer to him as a cunt or similar (but on this thread it's apparently ok to do so) and I wouldn't sue an airline.

I've repeated time and time again that if other women feel differently that is fine. I am not trying to tell other people how to think but I am voicing my opinion. Apparently that isn't allowed unless I agree 100% with the comments here about sexism and racism.
Well that's not happening sooo I'll wish you all a nice Sunday and hope you enjoy the sunshine.

This is an interesting take on it from a Jewish woman. She doesn’t believe it sexist but she doesn’t approve as it doesn’t sit well with other tenets of Judaism.

You can never justify or fight religion with religion. It's all looney tunes. The best you can hope for is a tacit admission that "Yes, I have some fruit loopy ideas, but they don't hurt anyone, and give me comfort".

Only in this case they did hurt someone. Unless being adjudged a second class citizen with fewer right than men sits OK with anyone here ? It doesn't seem there's a 100% consensus that the lady in question has been wronged ....

She has been wronged. She should not have been asked to move. It was against the law for her to be asked. It's clear, and there are lots of examples to support her.

Some here are saying they wouldn't mind being asked to move seats. I guess that's up to you. Personally I object to being considered a second class citizen and asked to move to appease someone else's religious feelings or dislike or disapproval of women.

Even if you take the discrimination aspect out of it, I just don't see why it's okay to ask someone else to move because you don't want to sit next to them. I've sat next to people on planes and been uncomfortable. I've discreetly asked staff if there's another seat I could move to. I would never dream of asking the other person to move! In the past, asking for seat swaps was sometimes done, and I've offered to swap seats when it's clear I'm in the middle of a family group, but these days, people can book their seats in advance, so there's no reason why you can't sit with your kids, partner etc, or even book extra seats so you don't have to sit next to someone you might disapprove of. There's no excuse for treating people this way, and in this case, it is not only rude, but it breaks the law that says women have an equal right to fly in planes and sit in the seat they've booked.

Should have chucked HIM off the plane.

It's been suggested that this occurrence wasn't "random" but that - having been handed their arse to them on a plate by El-Al - there's an activist movement of Jews with these beliefs that are deliberately setting out to cause trouble ?

www.nakedcapitalism.com/2018/07/women-and-men-of-the-world-unite-how-to-stand-up-to-extremist-orthodox-jews-who-demand-you-give-up-your-airline-seat.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4227922/Orthodox-Jewish-men-cause-bedlam-easyJet-flight.html

(Notice the dates on the articles ...)

And it seems Rosa Parks would get a "Who ?" in some parts of Israel

www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-orthodox-women/israel-back-of-the-bus-rule-sparks-religious-row-idUSL1417084320080115

For some reason, nothing I've read in the past hour has made me any less convinced that all religions are a crock of shit, really. By all means, believe whatever you want to believe to get you through the day. But don't require or expect me to indulge you beyond a "That's nice dear."

Eastie, very interesting points; thanks. I know we don't have to rank what is worse racism or sexism but it is fascinating to debate. Indeed some religions go in for both of them along with being anti gay too for a triple whammy. You can certainly describe how you feel and give your views as can we all.

It is never easy to ask someone to move - eg if someone smells or are so large they are half on your seat or most commonly because people want to sit near their family (which I have sometimes accommodated now my children are older particularly if I get an aisle seat for short flights as I prefer the aisle).

When the law on discriminationa gainst religions hits against equality legislation it is always fascinating. If your religion says gays burn in hell can you be forced not to bake a cake to celebrate them. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_v_Ashers_Baking_Company_Ltd_and_others The Christians won - you cannot be forced to promote views with which you do not agree although this is being challenged by the gay man in a further human rights case I think. Should a cake shop with black owners be forced to bake cakes for customers with an anti black slogan on it? No under current English law. We allow Catholic doctors not to abort babies under English law too where they believe abortion is murder.

Eastie77 you have derailed this thread. And you were telling other people how to think despite your backtracking now.

One of the comments from a Daily Mail reader

Every single one of these stupid, irrational and bigoted men lived for nine months inside the body of a woman. After nine months, each one exited via the most intimate part of her anatomy. That same woman kept him alive through her breast milk until he was ready for solid food. He was totally dependent on the gender he now considers to be inferior to all males, no matter how stupid, ignorant, cruel, dishonest or abusive. I hate religion. The sooner it fades into history the better

I agree 100% with @Eastie77's last post.
As she says we're all entitled to our opinions (or perhaps not here). Personally, I enjoy hearing other people's views. It gives me another perspective and it's good to take on board how others see things. But that's just how I feel. Others might disagree.

I stand by my view (which of course others are free to disagree with) that anyone should be able to politely ask another passenger if they'd mind moving. Polite being the key word. Absolutely it's not ok for anyone to feel coerced into moving. Like I said before, that's definitely unacceptable.

Many female rape and DV survivors will feel more comfortable sat next to another woman. Likewise many muslim women. I've not flown for a few years so perhaps things have changed, but advance seat bookings are not always guaranteed.

One would not expect an airline to tell a Muslim they must find their own Halal meal, nor a person with prostate cancer they couldn't have an aisle seat to ensure ready access to a lavatory.

I agree with the first but not the second, air transport has some restrictions on who can sit where, I'm not allowed in an aisle seat for take of and landing due to disability, I'm also not allowed in the seat by the doors.

A quick google show 5 different airlines fly between Tel Aviv and London, including BA, with BA the men could have booked club or first class tickets and avoided the problem completely.

Advance booking will not guarantee the sex of the person you are sitting next to unless you book the whole row.

I'm as uncomfortable with the idea of a woman asking a man to move just because he is a man as I am with a man asking a woman to move just because she is a woman.

I stand by my view (which of course others are free to disagree with) that anyone should be able to politely ask another passenger if they'd mind moving. Polite being the key word. Absolutely it's not ok for anyone to feel coerced into moving. Like I said before, that's definitely unacceptable

Your whole idea is unacceptable.

If, say, you're from an ethnic minority and you're asked to move, you might very well believe - rightly or wrongly - that it's because the passenger simply doesn't like sitting next to a person of your race. That would be very hurtful.

Frankly, if you cannot bear to sit next to a person of one sex - and obviously there's a 50% chance you might have to on any given flight - then you pay to make special arrangements when booking your flight, or you grin and bear it. Demanding - or even 'politely asking' - that other passengers move to accommodate your wishes is obnoxious.

A quick google show 5 different airlines fly between Tel Aviv and London, including BA, with BA the men could have booked club or first class tickets and avoided the problem completely.

It seems that there is a pattern of behaviour here, similar to the cake case. These airlines (note the exclusion of El-Al, who won't put up with such tomfoolery) have been selected because they've caved in before.

This isn't about some gentlemen who wanted to fly somewhere because the wanted to go there. This is all about some gentlemen who wanted to be activists for their faith and try and bully low-cost (i.e. low standards) airlines into allowing them to force their disgusting views on the world at large.

The fact that the men wouldn't even directly ask a woman would make me want to help even less.

obviously there's a 50% chance you might have to on any given flight

Statistics, yay! I'd say that there was probably about a 70% chance. It's just less than 50% in a two-seat row or if you sit next to a friend. But there's a chance of the middle seat in a three-person, and I don't know if across the aisle counts. I think air travel is probably weighted towards men slightly and I don't know if children who are female count as a problem. Yuk if they do.

If you know it's a big probability, you manage that risk, rather than expecting women to facilitate your wants.

It's hard not to keep thinking of Monty Python at this point, at the stoning.

...are there any women here ?...

Demanding - or even 'politely asking' - that other passengers move to accommodate your wishes is obnoxious.

Exactly this. I keep making this point because I really can't get my head around a way of thinking that says you should have the right to ask others to move because you don't want to sit next to them. YOU move! You're the one with the problem, you're the one who moves. They haven't done anything except sit there, what on earth would give you the right to ask them to move? If I get on a bus, I don't sit down next to someone and then tell them I don't want to sit next to them, can they go and sit somewhere else! A plane is a bit different because you don't necessarily have as much choice, but when I've sat next to someone I didn't want to be sat next to, I've asked the airline staff could I move to another seat.

Am I missing something here? I feel like I'm going a bit insane.