Stonewall Lobby World Rugby

[SunsetBeetch]

Ffs I am so sick of this agenda-heavy lobby group and their war against women's rights!

(Note that they are controlling who can reply to them too.)

“We are asking rugby clubs at all levels of the game to stand with us against a ruling that is exclusionary and that will impact some of the most vulnerable people in the community”.

Join us and
@LgbtiqS
in calling
@WorldRugby
to #TackleTransphobia lgbtiqsportalliance.org.uk/uk-lgbtiq-sport

twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1296801438211944455?s=20

Can anyone think of anything, anywhere in the UK currently, that requires males to take on risk of actual bodily harm or death in the name of not limiting female freedoms and respecting female feelings?

gardenbirds. I read that post with great interest. Which is why I asked the question. Because I have seen a growing number of them and am totally ignorant as to whether these stats are collected by at least at county or even country level.

I am assuming not. But thought to ask.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/659962d0-e20f-11e9-8221-1b98fc56091e?shareToken=fc114279491da6e247f8caacafac3468
This is the professional judgement from referees who are used to assessing players and ensuring safe practices in the game. I’m sure they are not anti trans players - they are pro safety. In the same way that the colts are not allowed to play with the seniors, nor should anyone with, on average, a drastically different body type be playing with women.

Also worth considering how female players' hands are tied at a personal level here.

If you are injured by a male player on the women's team, your complaint is that the injury or degree of injury occurred because they are male, and the harm caused is different to that which you would have suffered from a female player in those circumstances.

You're instantly going to be screamed at and criminalised for heresy. So is your team. Pressure will be put instantly on your managers to sack you for transphobia.

Female people's hands are tied.

michelle

I share the frustration. But having seen organisations backpedaling when the emotive pressure has been applied, I am unsure as to how this will play out.

But I have seen post after post on twitter demanding said stats. It got me thinking. And as I mentioned previously, I figured clubs might not separate out this data as it would be considered transphobic. Therefore, it would make those demanding it disingenuous at best, deeply hypocritical most likely.

Agree Wines

It boils down to what it always boils down to.

Heads, male people win. Tails, female people lose.

This is the link with Ross Tucker who helped develop these new guidelines or proposed ones, talking about why you don’t need to study rugby or rugby injuries specifically, to calculate the risk:

www.rugbypass.com/news/thats-ideology-not-science-renowned-sports-scientist-steps-in-on-transwomen-in-rugby-debate/

Yes michelle. I find it all more frustrating due to the erosion of meaning in words too.

Just like using ‘vulva owners’ can give a completely different meaning when discussing sex (it is very easy to substitute dogs or cows into the sentences in that article and keep the meaning.). So, the paragraphs completely lose their meaning to discuss, you know, women.

The word vulnerable has been used in explaining the case of the males in rugby wanting to play with their identified gender. Whereas the vulnerability is on the women they are playing against. So again, another meaningless use of words to the detriment of the truly vulnerable in this case. Women players.

I honestly think that once World rugby state as they have that the science shows there is a serious injury risk increase, that any union not applying the recommended policy, will be going against their own safety policies and subject to lawsuits. The NZ rugby union was forced to stop touring South Africa or hosting them during apartheid by 2 lawyers who took them to court for not adhering to their own policies. That’s why most of the 1987 all black team snuck away in the middle of a home tournament to play in South Africa as ‘rebels’ instead, or apartheid enablers as I call them! So if any union does not apply these science based recommendations, you wouldn’t necessarily need to be a player to sue the union. It could be anyone... JK Rowling for instance and you wouldn’t need an injured player to do it either

In all these discussions since the World Rugny review, I have not seen anything from the Rugby Football League. Surely this affects them too?

I've just done a quick Google and this is the only reference I can find
secure.rugby-league.com/ign_docs/RFL%20Rainbow%20Booklet%20A4%20oct%2009.pdf

I think I'll drop their Inclusion and Equality Manager an email.

League is more like touch rugby so the issues are less cut and dried, from an injury perspective.

Google is not being helpful...

I'm not sure about that Samphire but I do take your point about it being different in structure. However it is still rugby and a contact sport.

I've played amateur football (soccer) for nearly 30 years, including competitive women's football and mixed friendly football (informal games).

For a time, in women's football, I played alongside a trans woman. I did not realise at the time (and only found out later when she detransitioned) but she was very obviously much stronger, faster, fitter and harder than any of the other players. Most women were afraid to play with her as she would tackle much more aggressively and with more force than anyone else. I've played against very skilled women from higher leagues, and this was quite a different experience.

Playing mixed football has become increasingly less enjoyable for me over the years and really brings home the physical differences between men and women. I very obviously can't compete on a level playing field in terms of speed, strength or skill (women often start playing much later in life than men). I regularly get knocked over, despite backing off from tackles, and these men are generally holding a lot back. One thing that always strikes me is limb length - they can reach the ball before me because they simply have longer legs! Going up against one for a header would not be wise! I'm probably lucky not have had a serious injury, bar a possible cracked rib last year, and it has been entirely my choice to play against men in this situation.

I think the reason why we haven't had official comment from many rugby organisations is that the new World Rugby guidelines were leaked before they were finalised.

So Stonewall is ramping up the pressure for a gender-inclusive policy before the official guidelines come out. Sports organisations are waiting for the guidelines to be published before they make any comment. Similarly, I think Ross Tucker will do a big blog post + podcast about the whole process once the guidelines are released, but doesn't want to do so before they are officially finalised.

Sorry deltoids that does read very disparaging, doesn't it?

I meant it to say that as League is not as full contact as Union, never has been since it was codified to protect working men from injury, leading to loss of productivity, it is harder to rely on injury alone. There has to be more on the advantage of being physically male.

But I shortened it far too much.

I still can't find anything useful online... Just some waffle that includes definitions but no policies!

Yes Ross Tucker has said he would. He’s pretty clear that the leak is what will be happening though as from a safety point of view they’re obliged. One thing I hate about that guy though, he said he hates that his research is being used to say they’re cheats and that the guidelines shouldn’t extend beyond sport ie nothing to do with bathrooms etc with a little bit about, oh I understand women’s concerns thrown in. He’s being professional I guess but I would prefer he didn’t say anything on the other issues at all.

He may say that, the women he works alongside, the contributors to his workshop, etc certainly don't.

But he is possibly trying to keep his research and writings specifically focussed, not wanting to comment on any other social sphere.

That’s fine but he shouldn’t say, as long as this is just for sport and not anything else. As in, these restrictions are only needed in sport. He should not mention anything else.

Samphire having dug around the RFL policy pages, I can't find anything either. The RFL are a shambles so it's not suprising.

I imagine he also has to be careful to avoid any accusations that he’s transphobic and so his work can be ignored

@Kit19

I imagine he also has to be careful to avoid any accusations that he’s transphobic and so his work can be ignored

This could well be the case. Dr Hilton has had her work attacked because she refuses to say that males can become women. Activists have tried to discredit her many times. Mind you they also state that the only research they will trust has to be done by someone who is transgender.

Gavin Mortimer describes the serious physical risk posed by those who have gone through male puberty if they are engaged in a contact sport with natal females. Good article.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/world-rugby-s-trans-women-ban-is-a-wise-idea

Just a prompt.....there was a MTF trans person whose coach said that she was going to be great so long as they could stop her injuring other players. Does anyone remember who that was.

and if injuries were being hidden and anyone found out, that would be a monumental law suit.

@highame

Just a prompt.....there was a MTF trans person whose coach said that she was going to be great so long as they could stop her injuring other players. Does anyone remember who that was.

and if injuries were being hidden and anyone found out, that would be a monumental law suit.

That was the lovely ‘Kelly’ I mentioned upthread, they play for a welsh team.

This is just a new level of nuts (every pun intended). If dh threads on my toe it’s agony. The thought of a full-blown rugby tackle...