Am I non binary?

[purplewolfie]

Hello everyone. My sister's just come out as nonbinary and I got upset tonight as I was trying to explain how I'm not a fan of gender expectations and stereotypes - now it seems to be that my (woke-ish) family think I'm a non binary in denial and that this is why I'm upset and feeling a sense of injustice and unfairness. I said that I felt taking on a non binary identity just removes me from the fight - just makes the issue about me and not society.
They swear blind that there are tonnes of people who wake very morning feeling their gender is right and proper and, if I'm not in this camp, then I must be non binary. Is this right? I want to hold up the concept of gender to a spotlight and maybe get rid of it - they say the politically active thing to do is to remove myself from the equation and come as non binary. My instinct is that this is a cop out and individualistic. I got upset. My head is screwed :(

It's bollocks, OP, an invented 'thing' by people who want an identity to cling to.

Agree with PP that I'd just not bother getting into it with them, though. Pointless. The thing about identity politics is that it is a form of tribalism, which pushes people further and further into their respective 'tribes' and can be incredibly divisive. This leads to more and more intense arguments and personal attacks, to the point where somebody can make the absolutely ridiculous assertion that 'They told me that my beliefs are like racism'.

These are people trying to win a (totally pointless) argument, not actually work anything out. When you see that clearly, you can see how much of a waste of time it is engaging in said argument. They're trying to place you on one or the other side of an imaginary line that you don't believe in.

I suppose it's akin to a Christian insisting you are protestant because you don't buy into transubstantiation, whereas as an agnostic or atheist the label just doesn't apply at all. From within the mind of a true believer, everyone must be labelled according to their invented parameters. Outwish that worldview, the labels just are meaningless.

A shrug is probably the best response, to be honest.

[er, my very patchy understanding of Christian theology might be completely wrong there, apologies if so].

Yes, by their definition you are non-binary - but so are most other people.

It's the poor binary people who really need the special recognition.

Just think of all those men living in squalor because their gender identity means they can't clean a loo.

What about all those women living in darkness because they can't change a lightbulb?

@merrymouse

Yes, by their definition you are non-binary - but so are most other people.

It's the poor binary people who really need the special recognition.

Just think of all those men living in squalor because their gender identity means they can't clean a loo.

What about all those women living in darkness because they can't change a lightbulb?

Nice!

Although since men can’t cook (unless they’re a chef which is better naturally ) they may not need the loo as much?

Always looking for the bright side (but not in a single woman’s house, because it’ll be dark 😉)

Women have protested, lobbied and even got themselves killed to get away from this sexist bs.

Being a woman or a man isn't a feeling or a tribe, it's JUST WHO YOU ARE.

By definition I would be non-binary because I don't exhibit (sexist) feminine traits that (old-fashioned, sexist) society puts upon me. But most women I know are like me. We work in areas that women were once discouraged from working in, we wear clothes formerly only men wore, our hair is shaved, or short, and heavens! we own property and pay our own bills! We paint our own walls and unblock our own U-bends! Who knew this meant we might be non-binary! I thought we were progressing women's rights for the past 100+ years! Silly me!

So, youre an ordinary person then op, who doesn't fit neatly into a box of stereotypical criteria. I'd love to meet someone who actually did!!!

every time a non conforming woman declares themselves non binary they reinforce the extremes of gender expectation and narrow the definition of woman

Yes absolutely this. Im going to say this to my dd

Can you ask them what a woman feels like so you’ll know if you are one.

You’ll get lots of stereotypes and intangible shit.

Proceed to strongly imply they are sexist but end the conversation saying you’ll think about it.

this sort of thing annoys me, your family seem very woke and a bit annoying. so they think that because you don't 'conform' you are non binary? why can't you just be a female person who happens to like 'male' things? it makes no sense.

the whole 'non binary' thing actually serves, in my opinion, to reinforce gender stereotypes rather than break them down. i've seen parents who are like 'oh my child (female) likes playing with trucks so i thnk they are trans! it's so damaging! why can't a girl just like playing with trucks???

I think that a new way of categorising ourselves has been foisted upon us and there are now two systems of categorisation. One is your gender identity (what you feel in your head) and one is your bio sex (no feelings required). Anyone who is trans is using the gender identity system of categorisation. If we are forced to use this new system of categorisation I would be a non-binary (Agender) person. Although I don’t really see the point of categorising myself as something I am not.

OK, firstly sorry, this is a lot longer than I thought it would be and possibly outing. But first time I have actually had the guts to say something on this subject.

I'm still trying to work out if non binary is just the new name for gender non conforming where gender is just stereotypical behaviour.

I have always been gender non conforming, a tom boy from birth, my family nick name was Butch. Did not have many female friends as a child. Always played with the boys, ignored by the girls as "weird," embarrassment to my very traditional mother. " Why couldn't I be like all the other girls!!!!"

Best subjects math and science but also drama ( always given male or the adult roles in all school plays or musicals, as was adult height and build at 11/12 but playing teen/adult female roles in amateur dramatics outside of school during the same period ) & art. Dyslexic but not spotted until I was an adult because..... well I was a girl and in the top set for everything. But you know what. THANK GOD I grew up in the 70s and 80s.

Joined the WRAF after A levels, but was seriously injured in a freak accident during training and had to leave. Ended up in the banking sector for over 15 years. Only full time, working mother in a team of 70 stockbrokers. (Whole other story on sexism in the workplace, but for another day, hey!)

Now I have always liked the alternative boys, loved long hair and makeup on men ( giving away my age here). DH ( and best man) had longer hair, more jewellery and make up on than me at our wedding.

Dh ended up as SAHD, we started off both working part time around the 3 kids, but I could earn a lot more than him, so why not have one of us at home with the kids. He did work part time around me and the kids so we'd have extra money for Xmas or holidays or just to escape the 3 mini monsters for a while .

My view female/male is simply words we have applied to Sexual dimorphism species.

Woman is female of the human species. Just like doe, vixen or ewe is the word we have given to describe a female deer, fox and sheep.

Everything else is just personality, abilities, personal traits and society's pigeonholes.

Sorry this is so long, but final thought, looking at the female names for mammals, god they seem so depressingly sexist. Or is it, that so many are used as an insult? Really not the same for the male versions. Funny that!

Non binary makes absolutely no sense. If it refers to sex, no one is non binary. If it refers to gender, everyone is non binary as I've never met anyone who is 100% happy with either make or female gender roles.

Why cant people just be who they are, a different gender reference/name change does not make a person happier.......being honest and true to yourself does.

The world is going nuts......

Non binary is a bit like star signs. Vague enough to include pretty much anyone who wants to believe in it.

We're almost all non binary, especially women.

The distinction is surely between those who think it makes them different /special and those that don't.

That said, I forgive younger people who identify as non binary. They've been given a choice akin to "Christian /Muslim /Jewish /Buddhist /Infidel". If I didn't realise there was another way, I'd probably choose "Buddhist" too and get really upset with those who assumed I was "Christian" just because of how I looked.

Hi Dryadia, well done for being brave enough to do a first post. I think many of us have arrived here in the same way that you did with the scary realisation that we would have been transed had we grown up today.

THANK GOD I grew up in the 70s 60s and 80s 70s

Thingybob

You know what, I actually more happy all my kids are now safely in their mid 20's to 30's and though Uni. (Where non of them seem to come across the gender debate)

They are all just as non conforming as their parents and not ready to have kids just yet.

What a state of play.

Yeah my children also escaped this madness but it's the grandchildren I concerned about now.

the whole 'non binary' thing actually serves, in my opinion, to reinforce gender stereotypes rather than break them down.

This. This. This.

We're all "non-binary" because the binary is an artificial socially-created division.

It's the cis/trans binary they're identifying as not part of - very obvious when you put their prefix system in. OP's sister is neither a "ciswoman" nor a "transman".

I agree with pp that it's the new word for 'gender non conforming". It just sounds a bit batshit to the rest of us because we're using the labels man&woman to refer to humans of a particular sex rather than humans of a particular essence (masculine or feminine).

It's cowardly though. It accepts the 'truth' of gendered essences being a defining feature of the person; it accepts the imposition of gender as bad without any analysis of what function that imposition serves; it's an individualistic response to a societal problem. And it does nothing to tackle, or even acknowledge, the root of the current assault on sex-based rights - the ejecting of 'inadequate' males from the Man Club.

I would advise smiling, nodding, and mentally readjusting your assessment of her critical faculties, OP, but if it were me I'd be getting drunk and having a flaming row. It wouldn't be pretty!

It's annoying because me and my sister are obviously both coming from a similar place. We both don't have much room for gendered expectations in our lives. My instinct is to represent as female to claim space. Her instinct is to opt out of the system. I respect her right to do this but I do think it's self serving.
I got really sad when the solution offered was that everyone who felt like me should opt out and go NB! Who'd be left and what the hell would female look like?!
I can't even use the word woman anymore as I don't know what it means. 🤦🏻‍♀️
For the poster that asked, non binary for my sister means using they and them. She likes seeing Mx on an envelope. She presents a little more 'feminine' than me in terms of hair, dress and make up. She knows people in the street will judge her female. She compared it to her friend's ASD diagnosis in enabling her stronger sense of self.

'I'd be getting drunk and having a flaming row'. Yep this is what I did. And you're right it wasn't pretty. 😄

So she's using non-binary markers to indicate "I am not of the class Woman."

Which, if you consider exactly what goes into the ever-evolving culturally-specific Platonic ideal of Woman - the pink and sparkles, the domestic drudgery, the pornified hypersexual availability, all of it - is perfectly true.

But what she's doing in order to deal with this is to effectively declare herself 'not like the other girls females'. Which rather suggests she on some level believes that the other girls are that horrible set of stereotypes. I'm not surprised you're upset.

It strikes me there's something of the madonna/whore dichotomy about this too. I need to think about that some more though.

And your sister needs to realise we don't get to identify out of this shit, because we never identified into it in the first place.

She knows people in the street will judge her female. She compared it to her friend's ASD diagnosis in enabling her stronger sense of self.

I just don’t get it. Wouldn’t staying true to yourself (Woman who wears / does as she likes) and saying “fuck the system that makes me feel wrong” be more productive?

The implication she is making is that woman who do not declare they are NB or Genderqueer (and tolerate the use of female pronouns) are gender conformists.