Dads get PND apparently

[Cabinfever10]

am watching a BBC news article right now claiming that he had PND 🤬 hes set up a charity for men with PND.
I'm disgusted with them what else will they try to steal from us

Men's hormones also change after birth.

There is a steep drop of testosterone. This helps bonding.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/09/170905145535.htm

What else would they call it?

@MonkeysAllGoWoo

Men's hormones also change after birth.

There is a steep drop of testosterone. This helps bonding.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/09/170905145535.htm

What else would they call it?

Post paternal depression?

Natal means birth, while most men become parents through their partner giving birth they themselves don’t give birth.

Men are more likely to experience depression after becoming a parent if their partner has PND, so better recognition of PND and care would surely reduce the likelihood of Dads of young babies developing poor mental health.

@Gwynfluff It’s oxytocin and dopamine primarily. I haven’t claimed men suffer the precise same condition as PND, in fact it was I that suggested calling it Post Paternal Depression which I note you concurred with me on.

My original post wasn’t aimed at you, it was merely in rebuttal towards those who claimed there were no hormonal effects men whatsoever, when clearly there are. Another position we are in agreement on I note.

I make no claim one way or the other in terms of what men/women experience relative to one another when their endocrine system malfunctions simply because it’s impossible for one person to experience both, I would have thought that was obvious. Although it’s also just as obvious a man cannot die or sustain severe injury through the birth process either so of course women have it objectively worse and ill state it here because I am genuinely questioning if I have failed utterly to get across what I meant.

I’m also not interested in getting my grubby little mitts on women’s precious PND health resources whatsoever. As I said I saw a friend go through proper full blown psychosis, it was not pretty and a great many of our social circle totally abandoned her (both men and women), that left me a little disgusted and with an intense appreciation and compassion for those afflicted by it. You are absolutely bang on when you talk about the societal pressures women are put under.

My response to you specifically was really in agreement that this should not be an excuse for fathers to shirk their responsibilities, and reinforcing that by saying I think it’s more likely to afflict involved dads than those who are not (I mean in terms of hormonal effects). In terms of accusations of NAMALT and whataboutery, I am confused where you have gotten that from, or perhaps it is actually me that has the problem understanding nuance. One would think if there was a possibility that there was a hitherto undiagnosed condition that plays havoc with men’s hormones it would be of incalculable value to mothers and fathers both as I imagine it is no picnic for women stuck with partners gripped in the throes of it when everyone is trying to adjust to a new baby.

If I have misread as hostility to what I have previously written I apologise, but if I have not I suspect your next worry is not wanting to give deadbeat dads and crappy partners an easy out by blaming hormones for bad behaviour. To which I’d say I don’t think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. Terrible men can exist alongside those struggling with mental health issues, and I would be very keen to see the latter category researched, treated and supported to mitigate further catastrophe in families, and don’t worry I am not expecting feminists to do any of the work I’m perfectly capable of advocating for it myself.

It's very hard for them, lack of sex and having to face up to responsibilities. Poor lambs.

Judging by the way some MN posters see men with depression as being basically untouchable, this should be just delightful for abusers.

Now they can snap at you, do nothing around the house, complain about the baby, and cry about the lack of sex while you recover, do all the baby things, and try to sleep for an hour every now and again. And if you say anything back to them, or give them an ultimatum about their participation in parenting, you'll be abusing a poor depressed man who simply cannot get out of bed in the morning and must spend 6 hours a day on video games to relieve his depression.

It's coming.

I don’t agree with the use of the PND tag but men can struggle with MH after a baby is born! Being a mum doesn’t mean that we have dibs on everything, it feels like men just aren’t allowed to feel out of their depth because ‘it hasn’t happened to them’. Yes some will be total shits because they think it gets them out of doing anything to help. But men can still be depressed, I get objecting to the terms used but to totally override a blokes feelings is possibly why they don’t say anything. My brother struggled massively after the birth of his first...why? Because his DW refused to let him do anything and he was desperate to get involved and do his share. Fast forward a few years and he was told she only wanted the two DD’s they had and didn’t need him! It’s not always about us. Sometimes men actually want to and do struggle with the changes that baby brings. They haven’t had the nesting feelings or feel the kicking, they are just expected to get on with it when baby arrives and if they do struggle they are labelled lazy when they haven’t had to do a thing.

Post paternal depression?

It's not though. They are still fathers, so it isn't post paternal. It really is post birth, even though they didn't give birth.

That's not to say another term might not be useful. Maybe PPND, add paternal at the beginning.

But the dismissal of men's experience of new fatherhood on here is pretty shocking, IMO. The change in identity is often the most difficult thing for men and women both. It's not just a matter of being whiney any more than it is for women.

My DH struggled after the birth of our first, didn't think he was a good Dad, he got through it but it was hard. I was lucky anticipated PND as under a lot of pressure but didn't. I don't think any less of him because of this

Interesting i'd never seen this as problematic but I can now see the issue with the terms PND or AND for men. However regardless of that, men can and do experience terrible mental health issues after becoming fathers (could be linked to trauma/bad childhood experiences/huge change and feeling unable to cope) and I don't think it's right to dismiss that as they need support too. So whilst I can see the issue with the terminology it's sad to see such cruel comments on this board.

Mental health issues in men are a huge issue as men are often unable to deal with it and don't have the same support networks or ability to be open and vulnerable as women. Men's emotional repression is just as much of an issue caused by the patriarchy and all the bull shit gender stereotypes.

This is a charity scam. There's no need to lie about the cause, co-opt a woman's disorder, then beg for money if you aren't a con artist.

@bg21

its exactly reactions like this that discourage men from coming forward with mental health conditions! no they don't experience hormones but that doesn't mean mens feelings are any less important than womens ffs

This , i find this thread weird

I know of 2 men in my family who have had mental health wobbles after their babies were born. It must actually be quite common. I think if men are organising to support each other at these times and not expecting to be included in women’s resources that’s great. I may have heard of similar relating to miscarriage/baby loss and the way it affects men/non pregnant partner.

When I had my children I did still feel a sense of making sure everyone else was ok and adjusting to the new arrival, including dh and older kids. Hard when you’re tired and breastfeeding constantly. It would be nice to know there was specific support out there if dh was struggling.

The three men I know who have had severe mental health difficulties after the birth of their children attribute it directly to their experience of attending difficult births, their inability to properly help and support their partners when in pain and distress, and the sight of their partners being torn or cut. In one case the husband was expected to look after his wife and newborn after an epidural went seriously wrong and she was discharged by the hospital when in no fit state to do anything for herself or her baby. These are good men who simply went along with current conventions and expectations, which they found overwhelming.
While of course fathers should be able to attend the birth if they and the mothers want them to, the expectation that every father should do so may be more damaging to their relationships with their partners and children than is generally thought.

Given that the NHS states clearly that PND can affect both men and women, it is hardly unreasonable that men use the term to describe their experience of depression after the birth of their child. I don't think it is fair to accuse them of appropriating the term when they are simply being consistent with current guidance.

Will some men abuse it? Possibly. Is a different, distinct term needed? Probably. But I don't think that is the responsibility of individual fathers who are struggling with their mental health.

I think a new term should be used to differentiate between the women giving birth and the parent not giving birth. It goes without saying that the other parent, male or female btw, could suffer depression at the changes in their lives. It is not the same as the woman giving birth so it needs a different category.

its exactly reactions like this that discourage men from coming forward with mental health conditions! no they don't experience hormones but that doesn't mean mens feelings are any less important than womens ffs No! It is the acquisition of existing terms to explain a totally different mental health issue that makes it hard to talk about it.

Had the man/article talked about a male form of pnd, a similar issue as PND, like PPD as suggested up thread, then nobody would have batted an eyelid. But he didn't! He said "Why can't I have PND, men suffer too you know?" And yes, we know, but as a matter of biology, they often suffer differently. And women would like that to be acknoweldged.

If men like this could see beyond their own belly button and stop appropriating women's health issues and accurately describe and discuss their own, they'd get a lot further! PPD would have been entirely accurate and supported by all posters here, I would guess!

There's no doubt that toxic masculinity is a reality. The suicide statistics for under-45s are absolutely frightening, this now being the biggest killer of UK men of this age. IMO this should be afforded the gravity it deserves as the national emergency it clearly is, but mental illness still carries a stigma. There's a lot of noise and hot air swirling around 'talking' about it, for all the good that does, but little political will when it comes to funding and properly tackling a very serious issue.

Toxic masculinity doesn't benefit men and it doesn't benefit women. The 'stop whining dear' response is by no means something people of either sex have never heard before. Some medical issues are, however, peculiar to our biology. Our experiences shouldn't (but often do) exist in a hierarchy of whose is the most valid or important. There are various theories as to who loses. But these experiences are different, and this calls for a difference in approach to therapies and treatments.

The misnomer 'Male PND' is doing no more favours to men than it is to women.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

its exactly reactions like this that discourage men from coming forward with mental health conditions! no they don't experience hormones but that doesn't mean mens feelings are any less important than womens ffs No! It is the acquisition of existing terms to explain a totally different mental health issue that makes it hard to talk about it.

Had the man/article talked about a male form of pnd, a similar issue as PND, like PPD as suggested up thread, then nobody would have batted an eyelid. But he didn't! He said "Why can't I have PND, men suffer too you know?" And yes, we know, but as a matter of biology, they often suffer differently. And women would like that to be acknoweldged.

If men like this could see beyond their own belly button and stop appropriating women's health issues and accurately describe and discuss their own, they'd get a lot further! PPD would have been entirely accurate and supported by all posters here, I would guess!

I do agree we need a new term.

The NHS calls it PND, if a man is diagnosed in the UK he is diagnosed with PND. It isn’t his fault that the NHS calls it PND, blaming him is a bit ‘shooting the messenger’.

I don’t know if this is the culprit:
www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/68d922ef-b69f-4ee2-b26d-e60e4b03727b

Further down the article it reads:

“It is not known exactly what causes postnatal depression in women. It’s often mistakenly considered to be a hormonal condition, but feelings of isolation, recent stressful events, a history of mental health problems, and other unresolved issues from the past can all trigger it. And these are all things that can apply to men, too.“

Has the wider research around PND changed in terms of it’s cause? If there has been a shift in the medical thinking and it hasn’t filtered down to the level of general discourse it might explain why the NHS has posted what it has.

"I think a new term should be used to differentiate between the women giving birth and the parent not giving birth."

Neo Parental Depression? Because that's essentially what it is.
I don't doubt that fathers find it hard to adjust. However, I'd like to see some proper care for PND patients before they start centering men yet again.

I don’t think anyone is advocating centering men. It’s not like that whole prostrate cancer vs breast cancer thing. Obviously a lot has been done to understand, and support mothers who suffer from PND, and that’s brilliant. I just don’t believe it’s at all that bad to cast a weather eye on a hitherto unexamined mental health issue that faces men. Which will benefit mothers, because honestly how is a new mother going to manage of the wheels fall of her partner’s mental health at such a critical time?

@bg21

its exactly reactions like this that discourage men from coming forward with mental health conditions! no they don't experience hormones but that doesn't mean mens feelings are any less important than womens ffs

Precisely.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

its exactly reactions like this that discourage men from coming forward with mental health conditions! no they don't experience hormones but that doesn't mean mens feelings are any less important than womens ffs No! It is the acquisition of existing terms to explain a totally different mental health issue that makes it hard to talk about it.

Had the man/article talked about a male form of pnd, a similar issue as PND, like PPD as suggested up thread, then nobody would have batted an eyelid. But he didn't! He said "Why can't I have PND, men suffer too you know?" And yes, we know, but as a matter of biology, they often suffer differently. And women would like that to be acknoweldged.

If men like this could see beyond their own belly button and stop appropriating women's health issues and accurately describe and discuss their own, they'd get a lot further! PPD would have been entirely accurate and supported by all posters here, I would guess!

But the NHS calls it PND! I'm not saying that this definition shouldn't be revisited, but I really do not think it is fair or justified to blame men for talking about their mental health in the same terms that are used by the NHS.

its exactly reactions like this that discourage men from coming forward with mental health conditions! no they don't experience hormones but that doesn't mean mens feelings are any less important than womens ffs

Agree, it's not a competition FGS
"Taking depression off us as well" - there's some serious, fucked up thinking on this board sometimes.
The minimising of mental health issues on MN sometimes makes me sick.

The NHS calls it PND, if a man is diagnosed in the UK he is diagnosed with PND. It isn’t his fault that the NHS calls it PND, blaming him is a bit ‘shooting the messenger

And this, so the "poor lamb" type comments are a bit much.
That's what it's called. Petition for a new name for it if it bothers you that much, hardly something can blame men for here what any after birth depression is called.