Dads get PND apparently

[Cabinfever10]

am watching a BBC news article right now claiming that he had PND 🤬 hes set up a charity for men with PND.
I'm disgusted with them what else will they try to steal from us

According the the NHS, men can experience PND:

It's a common problem, affecting more than 1 in every 10 women within a year of giving birth. It can also affect fathers and partners.

I don't think they trying to be trans inclusive here, I think they do mean biological males.

Interestingly, this page goes on to list a number if causes of PND, all of which could equally apply to mothers or fathers. Hormonal changes and the physical impact of giving birth and nursing are completely absent, which seems a pretty shocking oversight to me. I had PND after my first DC was born and it was triggered entirely due to huge problems with establishing breastfeeding following a 72+ hour labour and emergency section that left me physically broken.

I do agree that men can get anxious and depressed around the time of birth but it is not PND and calling it that is wrong and dangerous.

Sorry meant to link www.nhs.uk/conditions/post-natal-depression/

Having a child can affect men’s MH so fair play that’s he’s set his own up rather than expected women to do it.

I agree with Boggled. I've known of several men who developed depression after the birth of their child. It's not hormonal but it is caused in part by life changes and not helped by sleep deprivation.

DH's depression was resolved when he decided to quit work entirely and take up full time parenting instead.

Just FYI, men do go through hormonal changes upon becoming fathers, as well as changes in the brain:

www.nytimes.com/2020/04/15/parenting/baby/fatherhood-mens-bodies.html

This appears to be linked to how much care they provide for their babies. It’s not a massive stretch to consider some outliers might have their endocrine systems go haywire, and require some additional support from mental health services.

I have no idea how common this as it’s not a particularly well explored area of research, but it is scientifically inaccurate to say men have zero hormonal responses to fatherhood, and when hormones are in operation there is always the chance of them functioning incorrectly.

If the nomenclature is a problem, and I agree it’s probably a mistake to conflate it with PND, as we have different hormones operating differently, just call it post paternal depression or something.

Some of the responses teeter dangerously close to expecting men to just man up when they are struggling, which is a pretty big contributor to the toxic masculinity we would all benefit from being well rid of.

I know all too well how devastating PND can be, I had a female friend I visited in a special psychiatric maternity ward, so I am in no way claiming parity here, but I think it would be very unwise to attempt to brush this under the carpet, it should at the very least spark scientific/medical curiosity and certainly not outright derision.

I think men can suffer some form of depression after a child is born. My friend did, he killed himself a few months after the birth of his child.

Yes, perhaps there is a better term for it that PND, however my labour had a massive effect on my husband. He watched his wife go through immeasurable pain, a crash section, numerous tests, etc... and yes whilst it was me who had to go through all of this I was largely off my face on drugs and perhaps not realising the gravity of the situation and relying on those around me to make decisions.

If my husband had watched me experience a horrific car crash he would have been offered counselling and extensive mental health support. After watching me labour for 48 hours and then receive emergency surgery he was offered thirty minutes in the recovery suite with me and then sent to make his own way home at 2am.

You're telling me that that wouldn't have an effect on a man?

I think the tone of some posts here is unhelpful.

Ok, it was a mistake to call it PND but the experience they are describing is real and worthy of attention.

It's no good calling men out for not being involved in their children's lives and then railing at them for describing the emotional shockwaves that may come with that involvement.

You may as well say that men can get PMT because they get upset in the run up to their partner's period.
Except they can't.

Any major life event can trigger a situational depression in anyone . But it isn’t equivalent to mothers getting PND. The pregnancy, birth process, the extreme hormonal fluctuations and that you often can’t get a proper rest afterwards and have a huge amount of social expectation to be in love with your baby, fulfilled, a natural, is just a different level. And in no way compares to fathers being impacted by the new arrival and It’s appropriating (a word I rarely use) to say it is.

Newsflash, his wife's breasts never did belong to him. 🙄

Post paternal is probably a much better term. Though you can quite imagine some men having the perfect excuse for a reluctance to get involved with care. I say this because it’s still very, very common for men to either fully or partially absolve themselves from caring responsibilities at all stages of a child’s. Even in more modern times, and even with a greater requirement for parents to provide more emotional support and attention to kids.

Sometimes, the absolving is very hidden but then you realise they do what the hell they want, when they want to and make huge life decisions on the basis of just knowing the female partner (I’m being heteronormative here by the way) will pick up the slack and have the ultimate responsibility for the child/ren.

I hope this is changing because it’s not changed in my generation, I’m afraid. It’s just we now manage it and a full time job out the home.

I wonder how many of them have become psychotic and how many have committed suicide.

We were having a similar sort of discussion in our adoption support group, post adoption depression is a recognised illness by the NHS. Interestingly a few of the mums had to have medical history corrected as they were being diagnosed with PND rather than PAD, my own GP didn’t know that PAD is when I first started discussing it with her.

Mental health provision in the UK is poor, depression and poor mental health after becoming is essentially expected. So I’m not surprised that the NHS hasn’t bothered to specifically recognise it in men after their partner gives birth and just gives it the same name/diagnosis.

(www.nhs.uk/Livewell/adoption-and-fostering/Documents/Adoption%20UK%20Factsheet%2014%20-%20Post-adoption%20depression%20June%202013.pdf)

@Gwynfluff if you check the NYPost I linked the hormonal changes men experience hinge on them being actively engaged with caring for a baby, so I don’t think us men using it as an excuse tracks at all. You’d have to want to and follow through with providing consistent care.

In my case I only experienced the positive effects, when I cared for my son. I enjoyed doing it and sought to do it at every opportunity. However I don’t think it’s impossible to see if something goes wrong with the endocrine system it might produce negative effects, same as happens with women.

Sorry I posted too soon, I wanted to add: albeit not in the exact same way.

Surely given that more men commit suicide than women, anything that promotes men to open up about mental health is to be applauded? I experienced PND after childbirth that took me a long time to recover from, with medical support.

I also believe my partner at the time experienced depression too as a result of the life changes going on. I have no issue with it being called PND if it helps men open up and be aware that having a child can have a detrimental affect on mental health.

I linked the hormonal changes men experience hinge on them being actively engaged with caring for a baby

I don’t doubt that there is a hormonal response and close care of a baby will induce oxytocin and I’m sure cortisol. But I promise you it is absolutely nothing like the hormonal fluctuations the birthing mother undergoes on top of a huge physical ordeal.

The psychosis referred to is a very specific postnatal condition caused by the huge hormonal changes that occur to females who have given birth.

Also, the feminism board is the one place I feel very justified in saying please don’t undermine an argument with NAMALT or whataboutery. I’m quite capable of nuanced thought - but I made an argument that structurally mostly women do the emotional labour and take on the caring roles in families. I’ll go and find the stats and papers if you really want me to.

Just say fatherhood’s a huge lifestyle change and can impact on mental health and new fathers might want some support to adjust. And some might even get depressed. Fine but it’s distinct from PND. Why get in on resources aimed at women who often feel this tremendous guilt that they feel so bad or fear if they tell anyone, someone might remove their child. I’ve seen many posts over the years and contributed to many in which we’ve supported women to get help.

men commit suicide than women, anything that promotes men to open

Agree but I’d be interested in the research as I’m sure some men would run a mile rather than be considered to have a condition commonly associated with women.

Anything that encourages people (male or female) to get help with mental illness is a good thing IMO.

Men seeking help and support with mental health issues is never a bad thing. This is where I feel the fwr board veers into plain demonising of men. Men can feel just as shit as women do. To judge and laugh at make mental illness makes us the toxic masculinity we claim to want to get rid of.

If a man feels depressed, he feels depressed. He doesn't have to have to prove his claim to mental illness any more than a woman does.

@MorrisZapp

Men seeking help and support with mental health issues is never a bad thing. This is where I feel the fwr board veers into plain demonising of men. Men can feel just as shit as women do. To judge and laugh at make mental illness makes us the toxic masculinity we claim to want to get rid of.

If a man feels depressed, he feels depressed. He doesn't have to have to prove his claim to mental illness any more than a woman does.

I absolutely agree that men get depressed and no one should ever have to prove their 'claim to mental illness' in any way. Men should be encouraged to speak about their feelings esp relating to birth when, with the best will in the world, they will inevitably get sidelined. However, it is not helpful to anyone to imply that the Post paternal (I think that is a good term for it) depression has any link to Post natal depression as only women can suffer from this very specific condition. As mentioned above, it is along the same lines as PMS (or even Post partum psychosis) - these conditions are brought on by an extremely complex situation driven by the physiological, emotional and physical experience (not to mention the huge impact on the microbiome which also affects mental health) of carrying a baby and giving birth and it is not helpful to anyone from a diagnostic or treatment point of view to suggest otherwise. We are not being mean to suggest that men can't have Post natal depression - I'm sure we all recognise that men have mental health conditions and some may be related to the birth of their child but it is not PND.

I'm not really surprised to see this kind of wording, given that PND is used fairly broadly in new mothers too - not just when they are suffering from mainly hormone related issues and certainly not to only refer to psychosis - in fact that latter in my experience has been referred to as PPP.