NHS Lanarkshire new policy on Transgender Employees ignores female staff's rights

[334bu]

t.co/mQxXUG41xZ?amp=1
The above link should download a copy of the Lanarkshire policy on treatment of Transgender staff. No consideration of the needs of female staff or patients is mentioned. Totally ignores single sex exemptions.

And yes, repeal the GRA. It should never have been made legally possible to falsify your identity documents and lie about your sex.

@OldCrone

The single sex exemptions are not compulsory. Just an option to achieve a legitimate aim. And impossible to police.

You're making a very good case for repeal of the GRA. If the GRA means that some men can legally be women, and therefore it is impossible to have a genuinely female-only space, then the GRA should go.

Be realistic. Not going to happen. Most of the free world allows legal sex change. The UK is not going backwards.

Most of the free world allows legal sex change. The UK is not going backwards

Repealing the GRA would be going forwards not backwards. Forwards towards treating women as fully equal members of society.

Well! That was a read! Not really sure what the hell much of it means in the real world....

Most of the free world allows legal sex change. The UK is not going backwards.

I'd be interested to know why you think acknowledging that sex exists and is immutable, whilst putting in place legislation which forbids discrimination, harassment etc of people who don't conform to rigid and regressive sex-role stereotypes is 'going backwards'.

Remember that the GRA was brought in largely to avoid legislation that would allow same-sex marriage, and in order that fullly transitioned transsexuals could go under the radar and so avoid being harassed or discriminated against for being transsexual. There was nothing enlightened or progressive about it.

Repealing the GRA on the other hand would show that we are a truly progressive nation which accepts everyone as they are and doesn't have an expectation that people should conform to rigid and regressive gender norms.

I firmly believe the GRA will be repealed, it is bad law that clearly affects womens and girls safety. A truly progressive society should be fully accepting of feminine men and masculine women. Not funnelling them towards unnecessary surgeries and medical procedures.

Fact: Sex is a biological state, gender a societal/psychological one.

IMO and IME rigid gender based stereotypes are now worse than they were when I was a kid.

We don't need laws like the GRA, we need laws that encourage tolerance towards all and penalised discrimination on the grounds of sex or gender or colour or ethnicity or religion or whatever.
And guess what, there ARE laws like that already.

Most of the free world allows legal sex change.

It does not. Currently less than a quarter of countries in the world allow transsexuals to legally change sex. Many of those still make it a pre-requisite for transsexuals to be sterilized and/or post-op before allowing this.

The UK currently has a system in place that is considered best international practice, in allowing a legal sex change but requiring a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria. That this is in line with best practice is evident from the 2017 European Court of Human Rights ruling in AP, Garçon and Nicot v France, which found that requiring a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria before allowing a legal sex change is not a human rights violation against those who identify as trans, but an appropriate and entirely legitimate safeguard against abuse of the system.

A scant dozen countries allow someone to legally change sex via a self-declaration, but some of those countries, like the Republic of Ireland for instance, have other laws in place that restrict what this means in practice.

rigid gender based stereotypes are now worse than they were when I was a kid. You're not kidding.

Compare Boy George, Marilyn etc with Sam Smith.

The former just lived it the latter spent days crying into the SM heavens asking for some kind of divine intervention for what? Permission?

Thanks Charlie. I was coming back to that now I have walked the dog. The baldly incorrect assertion irritated me and I wanted to point out that, as you say, the UK is actually already further forward and organised in a way that is used as a best practice case in law/government.

Which makes the TRA assault

... on said law somewhat stereotypical, follwoing an very old saw! Give them an inch and all that!

@OldCrone

Most of the free world allows legal sex change. The UK is not going backwards.

I'd be interested to know why you think acknowledging that sex exists and is immutable, whilst putting in place legislation which forbids discrimination, harassment etc of people who don't conform to rigid and regressive sex-role stereotypes is 'going backwards'.

Remember that the GRA was brought in largely to avoid legislation that would allow same-sex marriage, and in order that fullly transitioned transsexuals could go under the radar and so avoid being harassed or discriminated against for being transsexual. There was nothing enlightened or progressive about it.

Repealing the GRA on the other hand would show that we are a truly progressive nation which accepts everyone as they are and doesn't have an expectation that people should conform to rigid and regressive gender norms.

Really all the trans activist groups were asking for with the GRA was a changed birth certificate and legal status for tax, pension purposes etc. It was the then Blair new labour government that decided to complicate things by adding another piece of paper called a GRC. At the time I questioned why a GRC was at all neccessary. I think it was just to provide evidence for changing pension entitlements and such. But now I wonder if it is in fact a liability to anyone who has one. My advice is burn it and stand by what is says on your new birth certificate. That is all that was required in the first place.

Compare Boy George, Marilyn etc with Sam Smith. those were the days Samphire - those guys were fabulous and beautiful (and a friend of mine knows ACTUAL Marilyn - I was so excited to find out). Punks, Adam and the Ants. In those days - a bit of lippy and a flouncy shirt and bingo! Living your best life (male or female).

As girls we had spiky hair and bovver boots for a while, then a bit of lacy Madonna-esque and a rather dodgy bleached fringe phase but it was fun, temporary and didn't involve analysing our innermost selves (still got no idea there) or surgery (apart from the odd cheeky tattoo and piercing). Life wasn't always straightforward (when is it?) but it seems like we had much more freedom of expression.

My teenagers are very aware (from their peers) of 'acceptable think' which seems unbelievably constricting - I feel like it was the opposite for 80s teenagers.

Maybe it’s a talent thing...

Really all the trans activist groups were asking for with the GRA was a changed birth certificate and legal status for tax, pension purposes etc.

so presumably now that pensionable age is the same and the NI number needs to stay the same to keep the record of pension contributions to ensure full pension payments.

I hope that men and women pay the same rate of tax so that won't make a practical difference - it is just a question of should it be possible to change a birth cert at all as it is a record of the name and sex of the person as they were at that time.

The original birth certificates of adopted children are not changed (only annotated and then a new short Adoption certificate issued if required). Is the same system workable for trans people?

@gardenbird48

Really all the trans activist groups were asking for with the GRA was a changed birth certificate and legal status for tax, pension purposes etc.

so presumably now that pensionable age is the same and the NI number needs to stay the same to keep the record of pension contributions to ensure full pension payments.

I hope that men and women pay the same rate of tax so that won't make a practical difference - it is just a question of should it be possible to change a birth cert at all as it is a record of the name and sex of the person as they were at that time.

The original birth certificates of adopted children are not changed (only annotated and then a new short Adoption certificate issued if required). Is the same system workable for trans people?

Before 1970 and Corbett vs Corbett. Birth certificates could be annotated to correct the sex marker. April Ashley and others were able to have theirs corrected. Is that workable for today's trans people? Maybe for some.

sorry compounded the derail with my previous post.

I really am horrified that an employer can do this to staff with no consultation or consideration. Privacy while changing, especially into something like scrubs which often seem to be worn over undies is basic. I had to use a mixed sex communal changing room at a posh spa - I hated it, the poor bloke in a crowded room of women hated it - I won't be going again.

Hopefully if enough staff protest together to NHS Lanarkshire it can be changed back?

The Daily Mail posted an article yesterday about this policy. It's quite good and doesn't pull any punches in reporting what women think of it and the fact the female staff were not consulted.

@Spero (Barrister, Sarah Phillimore) was quoted quite bit in the article

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8627417/Lanarkshire-NHS-board-blasted-unlawful-policy-transitioning-workers.html

Ha. I am not from London and I am pretty sure I said 'dicks' not 'cocks' but yes, it was not a bad article.

Amazingly so since the journalist who spoke to me clearly did not understand the issues AT ALL and asked me in sad voice 'but why don't women want transwomen in their spaces?'

I had to explain that 80-90% of transwomen have made no modifications whatsoever to their bodies and that women who have had to grow up with men waving their dicks at them on public transport, from the bushes in parks etc etc etc would like a space without a penis in it.

I also note with interest that the article has only 1 comment. I can't for a moment imagine that people don't want to comment so it seems odd to publish an article like that and then stick all comments in moderation.

Yes I noticed the lack of comments apart from one not really relevant one from someone in California.

Perhaps in this case the journo not being familiar with the issues helped because I was surprised your cocks/dicks comment made it in there.

The article was actually laid out in a quite straight forward way and quoted a lot of women which was quite refreshing.

Would there be an increased risk of infection control problems if women avoided a changing room and changed elsewhere? I am assuming that would be the main reason why people don't get dressed in their uniforms/scrubs at home in the first place, though I could be wrong!

I notice 'trans' was capitalised throughout the document.

Anyway, no doubt the HR department is currently groaning under the heft of having to deal with all those trans employees jumping around deepest, darkest Lanarkshire. What a great use of resource.

As a HCP working in Lanarkshire I would love to know who to address a robust comment to?
I have no desire to comment on the DailyFail, much as that article is not terrible. Other than not really getting the whole issue.

And I agree, what a terribly ill throught through allocation of resources - particularly in these times of crisis

Interesting. Lanarkshire NHS document says they assign a sex at birth. I imagine if you can say 'No, you're wrong. It is a boy and not a girl' and get a birth certificate in the chosen sex. If it is not real biological sex any more

I wonder how long before woke parents will demand the right to have some say into what "gender" is assigned to their child at birth. I mean considering the midwife is basically just guessing, why shouldn't the parents have some input into the decision.