Feminism, whats the goal?

[UglyGlassVase]

How can we ever be in a place were we aren't reliant on men?

We have the babies.

We are physically weaker.

How do we get around that? What's the goal?

I'm feeling very despondent, the more I think about it the more bleak it seems.

@Gronky

In my country, every employee must pay childcare tax, even if she/he doesn't have children, or they attend private kindergarten. No one really complains about it, it's about solidarity.

I think that's quite different because everyone is a child at some point and the facilities are available to all parents/carers. It seems to me to be an extension of the same concept as publicly funding schools. Publicly funded separatism would be similar to identifying that, on average, certain ethnic groups are less able to pay for childcare and limiting provision to members of that group.

We do publicly fund some things that are just meant for a very specific group.

I think we see them as valuable in terms of society taking care of all people, and also that has knock on effects for society as a whole.

But I think the desire for female isolationist facilities would be so niche, and a lot of people would also question the social utility. It would seem like publicly funding the whims of a few.

So, kind of like a nunnery.

No, more like a female refuge center, women could keep their children, including sons until a certain age and could migrate freely, visit their families, male relatives.

I agree most would not be intersted though, but many would if good jobs, housing, child care, medical care, education etc. would be offered to them.

I am just not that certain men would tolerate this kind of autonomy, certainly not MRAs and TRAs and would try to cancel it, especially if it turned out to be a success.

Could we petition JKR to buy us an island?

Seriously, I agree that separatism is not an end goal, but a female country/state would, simply by existing, have a major impact on the world. At a smaller scale, women's land does still exist but it's rare and like communes etc tends to break down at some point because of internal or external strife. I wish there was more of it, though. Yes, the majority of women wouldn't want to leave male relatives/loved ones permanently, but it could be an amazing refuge for those who need it, and a great life for those who choose it.

It makes me want to write a science fiction novel, tbh!

@DonnaQuixote

So, kind of like a nunnery.

No, more like a female refuge center, women could keep their children, including sons until a certain age and could migrate freely, visit their families, male relatives.

I agree most would not be intersted though, but many would if good jobs, housing, child care, medical care, education etc. would be offered to them.

I am just not that certain men would tolerate this kind of autonomy, certainly not MRAs and TRAs and would try to cancel it, especially if it turned out to be a success.

I think far more people would like to see housing, good jobs, etc, offered, without having to agree to live apart from men.

We can insist that it is a legal requirement for men to have equal paternity leave to maternity leave. Then the mother does the first few months and the father, once the baby is weaned does the next few months. That way, time out for essential child rearing is embedded in the work culture for both sexes. And (I suspect) men would bond better with their children and be less likely to leave small children in pursuit of their dicks' own happiness.

We could/should have consciousness raising sessions like they did in the Seventies.

We could and should take stock of what men do well that we could do but don't and start doing it. Such as routinely asking for pay rises, or making lateral career moves for higher salaries.

We can inspire girls to enter STEM subjects, or to value their own humanities abilities equally with STEM pupils; to take up sports that make them strong; to wear what they want, do what they want (within the law, obv) without feeling any of it is unfeminine.

We must teach young women what a healthy, respectful relationship looks like so they don't get sucked into being doormats for abusive charmers.

So self education, education of others and campaigns for equality that tip the balance of parental responsibility as firmly into the male work arena as the female.

So, you are going to tell a mother, who may well still be breastfeeding, that she's obligated to go back to work and have the father take over as primary caregiver?

There is good reason a lot of people are uncomfortable with that scenario. At the very least it's attempted social engineering by running roughshod over what actual mothers and families want.

We do publicly fund some things that are just meant for a very specific group.

I think we see them as valuable in terms of society taking care of all people, and also that has knock on effects for society as a whole.

Could I ask for an example of the sort of projects you're thinking of?

@Gronky

We do publicly fund some things that are just meant for a very specific group.

I think we see them as valuable in terms of society taking care of all people, and also that has knock on effects for society as a whole.

Could I ask for an example of the sort of projects you're thinking of?

Sure, how about special accommodations that can be requested in recreational activities for people with disabilities? Like an extra person to help the disabled individual.

We also fund sports, even though lots of people don't have an interest in them or may think they are stupid. Or the theatre/arts.

We even sometimes fund special things for women or men. I just don't see that this would be a very popular sort of initiative. It has the feel of something a few people would fund privately if they were really interested.

@TorkTorkBam Yes yes and heeeeeell yes.

I don't accept the premise of the OP. I see feminism as anti-patriarchy work not anti-men work. There are 3 structures that subjugate people - patriarchy, white supremacy and capitalism. Dismantling of all 3 is constant work. And dangerous. And dispiriting. And frustrating. But that's where you need the pack - solidarity in the fight. I was listening to Michelle Obama's podcast about the exhaustion and depression that comes with fighting white supremacy for her. The constant violence against your physical presence. The violence for women is done by a thousand cuts and behind closed doors but it's just as brutal as a knee to the neck filmed on a street surrounded by onlookers

I do wonder if getting rid of the concept of fatherhood altogether would be best. Multi generational families rather than nuclear families. Of course the risk is that the dependency just flips from husband to father/brother.

I don't accept the premise of the OP. I see feminism as anti-patriarchy work not anti-men work

Which bit of my OP did you get that from?

Thank you, Goosefoot.

@UglyGlassVase you said:

How can we ever be in a place were we aren't reliant on men?

I don't conceptualise feminism as anything to do with reliance on men. I don't accept that premise . It's fine if you do! Just I don't find that a helpful way to think about the usefulness or otherwise of keeping going with feminism.

Did you think I meant you were anti-men as in you don't like men? It's more i'm anti the structures that are biased towards men's physical biological reality over female bodied relaity. I don't see men's physical reality as the problem . Not sure if that distinction is clear (it makes perfect sense to me but I think I may have some kind of processing disorder)

@Griefmonster

Okay, but what bit of the premise do you not accept? How is it "anti-men"?

Reliance on men or otherwise isn't the problem (in my conceptualisation of feminism)

I agree our structures favour and value mens biology but on the most basic level we are reliant on men to not use their physical advantage against us.

Sure we can encourage better male socialisation but we will be reliant on structures to enforce it. Almost all of the solutions given on this thread rely on heavy state intervention.

Reliance on men or otherwise isn't the problem (in my conceptualisation of feminism)

Great, good for you. How does that work exactly?

I agree with those saying it will take heavy state intervention (and that state in most places is steeped in ptrauarchy). We can't be depepndent on individual actions. It's like the anti-racism work that says the worst enemy of black people is "nice" or good white people. We need an anti-capitalist movement that frees people from work to live.

@Griefmonster

You can't abolish capitalism and retain the kind of state that could intervene in the way you are suggesting.

Or you could try but history teaches us it's not a great idea for anybody.

We need an anti-capitalist movement that frees people from work to live.

So men will have even more time on their hands to do drugs, watch porn and harass women, which is exactly what happened during pandemic? If anything, domestic work should be considered as a full time job and rewarded accordingly.

@DonnaQuixote

We need an anti-capitalist movement that frees people from work to live.

So men will have even more time on their hands to do drugs, watch porn and harass women, which is exactly what happened during pandemic? If anything, domestic work should be considered as a full time job and rewarded accordingly.

I don't think that anti-capitalism means that people wouldn't work. What it would mean is that they would mainly be working for their own benefit and that of their family.

What would you propose instead of capitalism? Some form of capitalism seems to be the most stable way of organising society, though I do think that the ruthless profit-seeking model could be modified and a sort of humanitarian model be adopted that would mean free healthcare, childcare, education, elderly care and support for those unable to work for whatever reason.

I'm wary of the idea of abolishing capitalism, though not of curbing its excesses and having a sort of mixed model with some areas (education, childcare, transport, utilities etc) that are not run by private business or the free market. I don't think communism was a great deal for women either!