Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism, whats the goal?

216 replies

UglyGlassVase · 08/08/2020 00:28

How can we ever be in a place were we aren't reliant on men?

We have the babies.

We are physically weaker.

How do we get around that? What's the goal?

I'm feeling very despondent, the more I think about it the more bleak it seems.

OP posts:
Justhadathought · 08/08/2020 12:54

You can research the Clownfish argument yourself. It's out there. If you knew anything about modern feminism and the trans debate you'd instantly get it

Personally, see much of feminism is just like any other form of intersectionality now. The Identity politics of oppression and grievance, and I've had enough of all of it.

It's like now, because I don't agree with everything you say about gender/sex/gender roles, or am questioning of certain feminist articles of faith, you seem to be getting frustrated and angry - or that certainly seems to be the tone. It's similar to the 'no debate' position of transgenderism.

I'm here because of transgender ideology and its impact not only on the integrity of women and girls, but also on children more generally.
Also because of the totalitarian tendencies arising from its rigid ideology. I no longer subscribe to the rigid tenets of faith of feminism, either. in fact, I've liberated myself from quite a few previous fixed positions of late.

Smellbellina · 08/08/2020 12:58

I agree with you to an extent @Justhadathought

I wouldn’t worry about the Clownfish argument, it’s a poor attempt at belittling your argument and dismissing it rather than engaging in it in any meaningful way.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/08/2020 13:02

t's like now, because I don't agree with everything you say about gender/sex/gender roles, or am questioning of certain feminist articles of faith, you seem to be getting frustrated and angry - or that certainly seems to be the tone. It's similar to the 'no debate' position of transgenderism

Not at all. You haven't, though, fully investigated or understood the history of feminism, key debates, or positions different to those of your own (which are highly conservative in a patriarchal sense and not terribly feminist). You are asserting that because certain social sex or gender roles exist (and because they fit your own mindset) they must be natural. Furthermore, you are tacitly patronising to anyone who disagrees. I'm here because I recognise that patriarchy, feminism and women's rights exist way beyond a dislike of the current big-ticket item of transgenderism. This is not the be all and end-all of the women's oppression. There are other issues at stake and for those of us who are gender critical thi sincludes critiquing so called 'natural' gender-roles.

WinterAndRoughWeather · 08/08/2020 13:02

Here’s the thing, I do actually believe that there is a biological element to some gender roles, and there is evidence that gratuitous male violence is innate to some extent (it’s seen as a behaviour in all the great apes).

However, as I said above, whether or not women are more likely to be predisposed to nurturing roles is irrelevant. What’s important is the exploitation and the value accorded to those roles, whoever is doing them.

I also don’t throw my hands up and say “ugh, nature, what can you do?”. I studied evolution at university, I know it’s not as simple as biology, especially not in a thinking species like humans. We can change, we have changed. Our evolution is driven by cultural factors now, and male violence can be effectively bred out over time, if the incentives for dominant behaviour are reduced.

Look at dogs for example - genetically they are wolves, but thousands of years ago the friendlier wolves began to live alongside humans, eventually becoming domesticated companion animals. The unfriendlier wolves that didn’t interact were driven further from human groups, so now there’s a split from the original wolf that had a wide range of behaviour traits. We have dogs and wilder, more dangerous wolves. Genetically they’re the same animal, though.

Just because male violence may be innate, it doesn’t mean we have to accept it (bonobo females have structures that control it, as do humans), or that it can’t change.

Same goes for all the societal structures that exploit women for male advantage - the working week, marriage, the nuclear family etc.

WinterAndRoughWeather · 08/08/2020 13:04

And also, I don’t believe it’s possible now to disentangle how much of human culture is nature or nurture, so it’s kind of pointless to argue about it. The important thing is that all of it can be changed and adapted to be more equitable.

TyroSaysMeow · 08/08/2020 13:05

100 years ago we couldn't vote or engage in public life.

There's no one to vote for, we're back on the urinary leash, and we're hounded out of public life for acknowledging the reality of our oppression.

Doesn't feel like we've made that much improvement to me. Yes, things look superficially different. We're just as fucked coming or going as we ever were.

We could do without them though. Their determination to crack reproduction means it's now possible to create a baby from two eggs, and to ensure no new males are born. as

Liberation is the goal. We will not achieve it by playing along with their rules.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/08/2020 13:09

I also don’t throw my hands up and say “ugh, nature, what can you do?”. I studied evolution at university, I know it’s not as simple as biology, especially not in a thinking species like humans. We can change, we have changed. Our evolution is driven by cultural factors now, and male violence can be effectively bred out over time, if the incentives for dominant behaviour are reduced

I agree with you here. In the old days, there was an effort towards actual change. But now it is all about putting girls in princess costumes and encouraging boys to be assertive while calling it 'nature'.

WinterAndRoughWeather · 08/08/2020 13:15

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Absolutely, all that stuff is absolute bollocks and 100% cultural construct. It may not be possible to disentangle the whole web, but a lot of gendered stuff has obvious cultural roots.

Barracker · 08/08/2020 13:17

Every time I read about another paedophile or rapist or murderer given a suspended sentence or acquitted I think we need a majority of the judiciary to be women, and a culture of severe punishment for such men.

Every time a law is waved through parliament that has horrible implications for women and girls I think we need majority female MPs to rebalance the representative needs of society.

We need women in positions of power, not token women, but enough women that power shifts and women do not have to curtail themselves to stay in position.

I don't know how we get there and I'm also feeling a little blue about prospects.

The only thing I'm sure of is that there IS a wave of feminism happening right now that I think is based in fury about men's denial of our very existence and recognition as female. And I think if we can retain a cohesion we will accomplish some of those goals.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/08/2020 13:21

Absolutely, all that stuff is absolute bollocks and 100% cultural construct. It may not be possible to disentangle the whole web, but a lot of gendered stuff has obvious cultural roots

Agree. So tired of people looking at what exists and saying 'it must be nature' and especially when those of us who do it differently are sidelined and when we are heavily penalized for doing so (women who choose not to have children seen as unnatural and men who choose to be primary childrearers or look after their children 50% of the time) are punished and told 'their wives should do it').

queenofknives · 08/08/2020 13:44

Just on the physical strength stuff - this is something we could totally reconceptualise. Did anyone see the New Scientist article last week on "the stronger sex". Looking at research into the ways in which females are genetically stronger and fitter than men. Yes we are weaker by some measurements, but chromosomally speaking we are massively superior! So I don't think we have to accept that somehow nature has us pegged as the underdog.

As for the person who said our being able to vote is irrelevant because there's no one to vote for... yeah, no. If you could time travel back 100 years I think you would be a bit more optimistic about what we've achieved in a very short space of time. But the fight isn't over.

BertiesLanding · 08/08/2020 13:47

For me, it is a workable compromise that holds consensus rather than a fight to the death on any side. I am pragmatic rather than an idealist.

WinterAndRoughWeather · 08/08/2020 14:18

@queenofknives

These days physical strength just isn’t important - power is in the information sector. Therefore it’s entirely possible to eliminate the inequities over time, as men in theory no longer have the genetic advantage.

The problem of course is that all of our societal structures have been built around the patriarchy that was built on the original genetic strength advantage.

Computer programming is a good example - when it first emerged as an occupation, women did it. As computers increased in importance, men took over those roles and they became better valued and better compensated.

Justhadathought · 08/08/2020 16:30

I wouldn’t worry about the Clownfish argument, it’s a poor attempt at belittling your argument and dismissing it rather than engaging in it in any meaningful way

Thanks! That was my impression too...although I know it can be difficult to gauge tone accurately when posting on-line.

Justhadathought · 08/08/2020 16:40

Not at all. You haven't, though, fully investigated or understood the history of feminism, key debates, or positions different to those of your own (which are highly conservative in a patriarchal sense and not terribly feminist).

Yes, I have. I'm now 55 and was very political motivated and active when younger. I set up a women';s groups at my college when i was 16; was part of the women's peace movement in the 1980's, and went on to do 'Women' Studies' as part of my degree ( before it morphed into gender studies). i've read most of the key feminist texts: Dworkin; Sheila Jeffreys; Greer, Dale Spender and so on...but I was also drawn to a more earth centred 'goddess' type feminism - which recognised and celebrated being in a female body. i even changed my surname by deed poll once to Yoni. I've been involved in ante natal support and with the home birth movement too.

You are making all sorts of assumptions which are incorrect - that I know nothing about feminism, simply because my life and lived experiences have led me to where I find myself today -which is in a measure of disagreement with you.

Justhadathought · 08/08/2020 16:44

You are asserting that because certain social sex or gender roles exist (and because they fit your own mindset) they must be natural

Yes, I am in a way.......because that is the conclusion that I've come to.
I don't think roles should be enforced though........obviously; as they have been in the past, and continue to be in some cultures.

You seem to believe that humans, alone, exist outside of the natural, physical, biological world, and that sex means nothing other than having different visible body parts.

Justhadathought · 08/08/2020 16:48

This is not the be all and end-all of the women's oppression. There are other issues at stake and for those of us who are gender critical thi sincludes critiquing so called 'natural' gender-roles

Yes, yes, yes! How patronising.

I'm suggesting you can critique all you like, but in clinging to the idea that all gender roles are purely the result of social construction according to the tenets of patriarchy, you can guarantee you'll be banging your head against a variety of immovable objects for the rest of your natural life.

QuentinWinters · 08/08/2020 16:51

i even changed my surname by deed poll once to Yoni Grin
You what?? And that means we should take you more seriously as a feminist?
I still remember the yoni massage thread

Justhadathought · 08/08/2020 16:52

Just because male violence may be innate, it doesn’t mean we have to accept it (bonobo females have structures that control it, as do humans), or that it can’t change

Violence is an innate possibility in all of us, and to a greater extent in males, but that does not mean we cannot temper or control that. Most of us manage to, and many men manage to as well, but it does remove the inherent possibility or capacity for it.

Some people can channel their aggression in less destructive ways than others. Aggression itself is natural, instinctive response.

PlanDeRaccordement · 08/08/2020 16:53

@TinselAngel

The goal of feminism is liberation of females from patriarchy.
Really? And here I was thinking the goal of feminism is the more concrete action of obtained equality of the sexes.
Justhadathought · 08/08/2020 16:54

You what?? And that means we should take you more seriously as a feminist?I still remember the yoni massage thread

I don't care if you 'take me seriously as a feminist'. I really don't!

PlanDeRaccordement · 08/08/2020 16:55

the idea that all gender roles are purely the result of social construction according to the tenets of patriarchy, you can guarantee you'll be banging your head against a variety of immovable objects for the rest of your natural life.

It is true that all gender roles are social constructs, but that it doesn’t follow that we’d be banging our heads against immovable objects because many millions of women are and live entire lives not conforming to gender roles. That freedom already exists in western society.

Justhadathought · 08/08/2020 16:57

And also, I don’t believe it’s possible now to disentangle how much of human culture is nature or nurture, so it’s kind of pointless to argue about it. The important thing is that all of it can be changed and adapted to be more equitable

That's kind of my view as well. For me the goal is a society which is generally more equitable and permissive of individual expression, so long as it does not actively impinge on the rights and integrity of others. It's not about ideology so much as a generally more humanistic way of living with others.

PlanDeRaccordement · 08/08/2020 17:01

How can we ever be in a place were we aren't reliant on men?

OP what are we reliant on men for? I cannot think of anything.

Swipe left for the next trending thread