Trans exclusive sports teams

[MizMoonshine]

Because of another thread.

Can anyone explain to me what the issue would be with having separate trans-only sports teams/athletic groups?

The argument that trans women are at an advantage to biological women and trans men equally are disadvantaged to biological men makes absolute sense. So why isn't creating a separate space for these groups something that's considered in the best interests of everyone?

I'm genuinely confused by this.

Because that's not what Real Women do!

Because a) they would probably say it was ‘othering’, b) I doubt there are enough of them, and more importantly c) VALIDATION

OP, the simple answer, is that transwomen do not want to compete in a separate category, because they think it is their right to compete against women and surprise, surprise when they do, they seem to win. Despite the biological/physiological advantages a male bodied person has over a female bodied person, many sports ruling bodies have caved into the demands of the transgender activists and their supporters.

I'd guess there's actually a pragmatic explanation for this one - not that many TW and/or TM into any one sport in any place. (The small numbers doesn't mean it's safe or fair to let them participate with women and girls )

So, probably better to think in terms of promoting genuinely mixed sex sports where it's save and practical, and/or the men's becoming simply an Open category.

What about the transgender men, though? They're at a disadvantage, physically.

I think it would be best to rename the men’s teams and competitions as ‘open’ and keep the ‘women’ category protected. That way when there aren’t enough transwomen to make whole teams they can play in the open divisions (as can any woman who chooses to).

contact sports should be treated slightly differently because the referee takes responsibility for the safety of players/fighters and should have discretion to say no to anyone at all on safety grounds.

because they think it is their right to compete against women and surprise, surprise when they do, they seem to win

andy
Yes, that seems to be it in a nutshell. And the coup de grace is nobody else in the competition is allowed to complain about the result.

Re: trans men

I remember looking at this a couple of years back and it seemed like most trans men just succeeded in the women's and girls' categories.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports

There isn't even necessarily a need to create a separate category. There are already mixed hockey leagues and mixed touch rugby leagues. Nobody is stopping anyone from playing sport with and against people of the opposite sex unless there are safety issues.

@ErrolTheDragon

I'd guess there's actually a pragmatic explanation for this one - not that many TW and/or TM into any one sport in any place. (The small numbers doesn't mean it's safe or fair to let them participate with women and girls )

So, probably better to think in terms of promoting genuinely mixed sex sports where it's save and practical, and/or the men's becoming simply an Open category.

Mixed gendered sport based on physical ability rather than what is or isn't between your legs also seems like a much more fair way of doing things.

The issue is that to enable fair competition, particularly at an elite level, single sex competition is also necessary.

'because that would be like pinning gold stars on them and we know where that ended up'

thats what i was told on sm.

I'm not sure I like the idea of men's sports being reclassified as 'open'. I'd worry that it implies that the 'real' sport takes place in the open category, and the women's sports are just a concession for females who aren't good enough to complete on equal terms.

Mixed gendered sport based on physical ability rather than what is or isn't between your legs also seems like a much more fair way of doing things.

Except, we have female only competitions for a reason and those reasons haven’t gone away.

Noel Plum has made several in-depth videos about the subject: m.youtube.com/watch?v=EwFZBG_ts4k

@cheeseismydownfall

I'm not sure I like the idea of men's sports being reclassified as 'open'. I'd worry that it implies that the 'real' sport takes place in the open category, and the women's sports are just a concession for females who aren't good enough to complete on equal terms.

I don’t think it implies that at all:

Women only sports are there not just to provide fair competition but in many recreational sports women do not participate in large numbers when the offer is mixed sex. That’s why there’s the This Girl Can campaign and British Cycling’s women only breeze programme. There is nothing to stop women cycling in the existing cycling club set up but it’s found more women participate if they know it’s women only.

Mixed gendered sport based on physical ability rather than what is or isn't between your legs also seems like a much more fair way of doing things.

Mixed sex can work for some sports but not all. Having categories 'based on physical ability' without the current division by sex would mean the end of female Olympians in many sports. We have the division by sex (not 'gender') for the simple inescapable reason that humans are dimorphic.

Because they say they are women so its not validating for them to have to be separated.

Except, we have female only competitions for a reason and those reasons haven’t gone away..

But, particularly at an amateur and social level, many people want to play mixed sport - so as I said before there are mixed hockey leagues, mixed doubles tennis, mixed golf tournaments, mixed doubles rowing etc. etc.

I think there is a lot of scope for including trans people in sport, while also protecting the women's single sex category.

Transmen on testosterone would be relatively ok in men’s teams. They’d struggle with the drugs testing in women’s teams though.

@merrymouse

Except, we have female only competitions for a reason and those reasons haven’t gone away..

But, particularly at an amateur and social level, many people want to play mixed sport - so as I said before there are mixed hockey leagues, mixed doubles tennis, mixed golf tournaments, mixed doubles rowing etc. etc.

I think there is a lot of scope for including trans people in sport, while also protecting the women's single sex category.

But if those sports specify the ratio of m to f, it’s still an issue. Eg mixed doubles in tennis. Potentially there’d be 2 men against 1man and 1 woman

@merrymouse

Except, we have female only competitions for a reason and those reasons haven’t gone away..

But, particularly at an amateur and social level, many people want to play mixed sport - so as I said before there are mixed hockey leagues, mixed doubles tennis, mixed golf tournaments, mixed doubles rowing etc. etc.

I think there is a lot of scope for including trans people in sport, while also protecting the women's single sex category.

Totally!

Which is why a combo of open (mixed) and protected/limited (Female only, and/or age categories) is where I’ve landed.

Re: the M/F balance in mixed teams, the female places need to be covered under the same protections as female only categories, otherwise competitive mixed doubles in tennis will end up being almost all Male/male partnerships.

But if those sports specify the ratio of m to f, it’s still an issue. Eg mixed doubles in tennis. Potentially there’d be 2 men against 1man and 1 woman

I agree, but I think it should be possible to create rules that enable fair participation, particularly at a non-elite level - as long as there is a distinction between mixed or 'open' sport and single sex sport.

"Mixed gendered sport based on physical ability rather than what is or isn't between your legs also seems like a much more fair way of doing things."

Which would mean women never winning anything or even simply being competitive.

The idea that single sex sport is based on genitalia is hilarious 😂

Look at the extreme difference between the sexes on grip strength, as an example:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17186303/

(I’m to refrain from making jokes about wanking but failing!)