Trans exclusive sports teams

[MizMoonshine]

Because of another thread.

Can anyone explain to me what the issue would be with having separate trans-only sports teams/athletic groups?

The argument that trans women are at an advantage to biological women and trans men equally are disadvantaged to biological men makes absolute sense. So why isn't creating a separate space for these groups something that's considered in the best interests of everyone?

I'm genuinely confused by this.

I know it's been said before but separate categories based on sex makes complete sense in sport. Men and women have very different bodies.

Separating by gender, on the other hand, makes zero sense. Do the TRAs think that women run more slowly than the men because we want to run in heels and make sure that our hair and makeup don't get ruined or something??

@TyroSaysMeow

Can I ask what that assumption was based on? I can't see any reason they wouldn't want to compete in an open category. What about it would put men off?

The athletic men I know would think it so blatantly unfair to compete in an additional Open category when a single sex one remained to them, that it wouldn't 'count'. I think it would depend to a great extent on how participating in both was regarded - whether any such win was seen positively. And how much prize money was at stake, of course. Imagine that would influence perceptions markedly.

There's little point in three categories, if two are going to be men's by another name. At that point we may as well just have two options, or have a separate trans category. I do think that latter might be fairer on trans men, actually. They'd not be able to compete in standard categories if taking testosterone, whereas an exemption could be permitted in a trans-specific third category, given transwomen have the existing 'doping' advantage of male puberty. But that doesn't seem to be considered that much. As so often, the unfairness to trans men, as opposed to the bending over backwards for transwomen, is blatant.

The problem really is that there's no way to be fair to everyone if someone has medically (hormonally) transitioned - and so, as usual, women are expected to smile bravely as they're thrown under the bus to serve the needs of males, and abused as bigots if they object.

^^"Traditionally people have been divided in sports competitions by weight class and age. Boxing, for example uses weight classes and age ranges."

How would that work? A 5ft2 man weighing 8stone would annihilate a women of the same size. Maybe if he was ninety and she was twenty...... Could work?

Not a derail honest, but I have to ask:

Which team would a "non-binary" person expect/want to play on?

The one where they had the best chance of winning probably.

I realised the benefits a male adolescence conveys when my DS at 14, a new member of his school rugby, took me around the middle one evening, his shoulder in my diaphragm, and steered me backwards all round the ground floor of the house before depositing me gently on a sofa. I was weak with laughter but totally helpless against his physical strength.

Comparative height, weight and fitness count for nothing. Women may have greater powers of endurance, but in the power bursts demanded by most sports the testosterone-built male frame will win every single time. Lean and wiry men, willowy men, fat and flabby men, frail old men, they are all stronger than us and they know it, even if they pretend not to.

Tests of grip strength have shown that a fit 20-something woman can match the grip of a man only once he is well into his 70s.

There can be no level playing field in active sports. Archery, shooting, chess, yes. Everything else, no.

I think it's a good job Wimbledon was cancelled this year. If Wimbledon falls, the whole world will see the nonsense clearly.

There's a difference between professional and amateur.

If you muddy the waters, you will end up with results you don't want.

A way to look at this is, when I was at school Freestyle swimming meant you could swim any style. Guess what, everyone did the crawl because it was faster.

It’s a shame the Olympics have been postponed because as a PP said, audiences want to watch fair sport.
An example, my mum is a massive armchair sports fan. During Wimbledon or the Olympics she’ll often be watching on the TV and computer simultaneously.
When I mentioned TW in women’s sports she was outraged.
Imagine that response across millions of living rooms during Tokyo 2020. The sporting federations will have to listen to the public then. I cross my fingers that they will.

Eveyone around me is enraged now. I am sure next Olympics and Wimbledon will change the tide.

What about the three categories (male, women and open) but you can only enter one

Trans-only leagues wouldn’t be spoiling anyone else’s fun, so it’s not what those sort of people want.

I think it would attract audiences of close to zero, as well.

Even at the non-elite level, it matters!

I am a very slow, rather shit, amateur runner. I'm as far from elite as it can get. But I still like to compare my times to the female average rather than the overall average. It is much less demoralising!

Of course at the amateur "fun run" level, a few Male bodied people are not going to have a huge impact: eg I think parkrun allows you to choose your sex category, but the small numbers of transwomen within the huge number of female runners wont push up the average that much.
There is also less incentive to cheat the system at the amateur level... I cant see any one transitioning just to get a better park run weighting. But I can absolutely believe that some athletes (who are fixated on winning) would do anything for an Olympic medal in any category.

And sex

Let’s not forget how college admissions work in the USA. Many less affluent black students are able to get scholarships based on their athletic ability. There are now cases of transwomen there who now receive those scholarships specifically for girls, meaning the correct recipients, ie biological women, cannot get their college places, these tw were not good enough to get a male scholarship, so self identifies as a woman and bingo, won the female competitors and therefore the scholarships.

@BaronessSnippyPantsofCroneArmy

Because a) they would probably say it was ‘othering’, b) I doubt there are enough of them, and more importantly c) VALIDATION

100% point C.

They demand validation.

There is another problem with open leagues that I don't think has been mentioned. I occasionally play a contact sport that's known for being extremely rough. It's not a massively popular sport at all and while the kids' league is very mixed with as many, often more, girls playing. In the adult league/s there are almost no women. The sporting body is very aware of this and has strict rules that interested women are to be encouraged to play, that men need to make allowances for women on their teams/at training. Etc.

At the moment I'm the only woman on my team. And the reality is that when I play not one of us are free to play to the best of our ability. The rest of the players have to hold back because there is too big a chance they could really hurt me. And I very much hold back and can't play to the best of my ability either. I'm not going to fully throw myself physically into a play against men, that would be nuts. If a man tackles me, I'm going to give up in a way that I won't if I'm tackled by a woman.

I'm constantly, constantly holding myself back conscious that to let go and fully play means that I'm at an enormous risk of injury. I know that if I was playing against all women, I'd be able to play to a much, much higher standard. Tbh, I'm one of the fittest people on the team, only a couple of the younger men would be in the same realm of fitness. I know some of my technical skills are better than most. And as I compete at a very high level in a tangental endurance sport, I know for a fact that my endurance levels are multiple times even the fittest of them. But I can't play anything even close to my best with the men. It's not anyone's fault, the guys are fun and welcoming even though they also have to hold back when I'm there. It's just a biological reality.

@334bu

^^"Traditionally people have been divided in sports competitions by weight class and age. Boxing, for example uses weight classes and age ranges."

How would that work? A 5ft2 man weighing 8stone would annihilate a women of the same size. Maybe if he was ninety and she was twenty...... Could work?

It won't work at all if people can identify in and out of whatever category gives them the best chance of success. Without a level playing field there is no sport.