Trans exclusive sports teams

[MizMoonshine]

Because of another thread.

Can anyone explain to me what the issue would be with having separate trans-only sports teams/athletic groups?

The argument that trans women are at an advantage to biological women and trans men equally are disadvantaged to biological men makes absolute sense. So why isn't creating a separate space for these groups something that's considered in the best interests of everyone?

I'm genuinely confused by this.

Which would mean women never winning anything or even simply being competitive.

I think the idea is that you ALSO have a single sex category for women.

merrymouse

Ah, right, that would work. I don't think it would be popular with "they who must not be named".

I agree that categorising only by ability/height/weight would just remove the female sex from serious competition in most sports.

I used to be vaguely friends with a bloke who transitioned in his 40s. The conversation that ended our friendship was a few months post transition when they were fuming on social media that they were struggling to find opponents at their local women's tennis club.

No one had batted an eyelid when they joined, but after a bit some of the women started making excuses not to play against them & they were very cross indeed about it.

This person was well over 6', powerfully built & had played quite a bit of tennis as a man, so...

Anyway I said something like 'well, they're probably not transphobic, it's just you're bigger & stronger & they're maybe sick of you winning all the time?'

& that was when I learned the term 'TERF' & was invited to go fuck myself & die alone & be eaten by my cats after they'd shat on my terfy corpse.

I'm not convinced my ex friend would have accepted a TW-only league, somehow...

If we were able to say out loud that biological sex existed, and that regardless of your ‘gender identity’ (urgh) that sport has to be split by biological sex because sport doesn’t care that ‘man, I feel like a woman!’ We wouldn’t have an issue.

@merrymouse

But if those sports specify the ratio of m to f, it’s still an issue. Eg mixed doubles in tennis. Potentially there’d be 2 men against 1man and 1 woman

I agree, but I think it should be possible to create rules that enable fair participation, particularly at a non-elite level - as long as there is a distinction between mixed or 'open' sport and single sex sport.

Yes, a lot of adults who play sports for fun do so at a level where mixed teams are fine. And that does mean sometimes that some players hold themselves back a bit if they are more technically advanced or stronger, because it's more about fun and companionship and getting some exercise. You play touch football rather than tackling, for example, or hockey but no checking.

Lots of sports have non-contact versions for kids, older people, or mixed play.

But if those sports specify the ratio of m to f, it’s still an issue. Eg mixed doubles in tennis. Potentially there’d be 2 men against 1man and 1 woman

I used to play a lot of mixed 5 a side football. Usually the rules specified at least 2 women on the pitch at any time. If one of those two women had been a transman, it would have given that team a huge advantage. (Case in point - sheer power of shots. In mixed football I regularly used to come off the pitch with bruises on my inner thigh where I'd blocked a shot from a bloke - bruises where you could see the hexagons and pentagons from the ball imprinted on my skin. I never got those playing against women.)

Purplecrowbar I can't for a moment see why that charming person is an ex friend, or why the women at the tennis club didn't want to play in matches against them. Such femininity and charm, after all. All a bit of a mystery...

@Areyouactuallyseriousrightnow

If we were able to say out loud that biological sex existed, and that regardless of your ‘gender identity’ (urgh) that sport has to be split by biological sex because sport doesn’t care that ‘man, I feel like a woman!’ We wouldn’t have an issue.

This.

Sex and gender are different, and one affects the body, and the other the mind.

Sport is about physical ability. Mental toughness, too, but that isn't gendered, so isn't relevant to categorising.

Anyone with a male body competing in female sports is so advantaged that they are cheating. That should shut it down right there, if we lived in a less sexist society. There is no right for male people to compete in female sports. Females have a human right to fair competition in sport, too, and no male's wants should overwhelm that right.

Some friendly teams at a grassroots level are mixed, and that's fair enough. Any sex segregated sports, and no. It isn't.

There are also the mass participation individual events like road running, or even at a smaller level like athletics and swimming. Record the trans athletes results seperately, so they can still compete but without disadvantaging biological women (and letting transmen have a chance of achieving).

Because they want to appropriate our spaces to affirm their gender, despite the fact that A) it makes a lot of us uncomfortable and B) its not our job to suffer discomfort to affirm their illusion

‘Open’ give a place for people who identify as non-binary too.

Just classifying sport via gender instead of sex is actually transphobic against NB people 🙃

Despite the existence of the Equality act which allows for female only spaces, they argue that “excluding” trans women from female sport is segregation - I’ve even seen some trans rights activists make comparisons to racist apartheid regimes! They simply don’t want any third spaces solutions because their reasoning is this - we are real women. Real women should get to play in the women’s category. If you exclude us from the women’s category this is arbitrarily discriminatory and degrading. A trans only category is segregation. They literally see it like if you excluded, say, women with brown hair from sports and had a brown hair separate category. There can be absolutely no compromise because the one thing they won’t budge on is the premise that they just are another category of woman and so QED get to be on women’s teams.

"Anyone with a male body competing in female sports is so advantaged that they are cheating. That should shut it down right there, if we lived in a less sexist society. There is no right for male people to compete in female sports. Females have a human right to fair competition in sport, too, and no male's wants should overwhelm that right. "

Yes, exactly, @wellbehavedwomen

I've thought about it a bit more and the idea of redefining men's sports as 'open' still doesn't sit comfortably with me.

At the moment we have two different but (theoretically) equal classes - men's sports and women's sports. It has been a hard battle to obtain equal status and financial parity for professional women's sports (which isn't over by a long shot), but I think most people would acknowledge that a woman winning an Olympic gold medal represents an equal achievement to a man winning an Olympic gold medal.

My concern is that in labelling men's sports as an 'open', although it would not make any differences in terms of actual outcomes for men and women, we would be subconsciously sending/reinforcing the message that true human excellence is represented by the 'open' category, while the women's category is lesser somehow.

Personally I take a pretty hard line on sports and I think sex-based categories are all that is required and the only fair solution. It is unfortunate that trans people may decide to self-exclude themselves on this basis, but that is not a good enough justification for change.

I don't see why we can't have a men's, women's, and open categories. That would enable anyone to enter two categories. The one of their biological sex, and the open. The simplicity of that arrangement would mean that there was no stigma attached to the open (some trans people say they would find a specific class othering, and therefore distressing) and any athlete interested could participate.

Having said that, I find the argument that a specific category, created for fairness, is 'othering' to be inherently problematic. Women have one for that precise reason. So do disabled athletes - and veterans, in fact. Is the Invictus Games 'othering'? Since when is recognising difference in itself offensive? And since when is insisting male sporting advantage is the norm, and female biology just an unfortunate difference like any other (height, weight, speed) that women just have to cope with not as 'othering' for female people as it gets? It's just the Spare Rib contention for the 21st century.

It seems to me that some people have retained a certain expectation of belonging in the Gold Standard Human Class, and see any suggestion that they now require adaptations, instead of being able to colonise existing spaces at will, as an abuse.

There's something very male about voicing instant outrage when your societal expectations go unmet. We're pretty used to needing adapted provision, and often not getting it, as Invisible Women attests. Centuries of experience does that to a group.

That would enable anyone to enter two categories. The one of their biological sex, and the open.

Always assuming transmen aren't on testosterone, obviously. They could still enter two categories, but clearly most wouldn't fare very well in the male one.

Mixed gendered sport based on physical ability rather than what is or isn't between your legs also seems like a much more fair way of doing things
Define ability
As if it is the ability to run faster, jump higher, throw harder
then women might as well tie themselves back to the stove right now

I wonder what you think about audiences, parents, support staff? How do they feed into this?

Especially audiences, unfairness is frowned on

"...a brown hair separate category."

The point they miss there is: if brown hair conferred a massive physical advantage, then we would have separate categories for blondes and brunettes.

Men's, women's and open wouldn't be fair - males would dominate the open, giving them twice the opportunity to get on the podium and win the prize money.

@TyroSaysMeow

"...a brown hair separate category."

The point they miss there is: if brown hair conferred a massive physical advantage, then we would have separate categories for blondes and brunettes.

Men's, women's and open wouldn't be fair - males would dominate the open, giving them twice the opportunity to get on the podium and win the prize money.

Yeah, I was assuming most men wouldn't want to compete in an open category - overlooked the prize money aspect!

Can I ask what that assumption was based on? I can't see any reason they wouldn't want to compete in an open category. What about it would put men off?

how can we separate athlete by physical ability?
what's the standard?

height? weight? muscle ratio? hormone? age? race?

when only 'open' and 'woman' category,
pp will start complaining 'why woman category exist? "

@MizMoonshine

What about the transgender men, though? They're at a disadvantage, physically.

They would be excluded for doping. Probably.

@skql

how can we separate athlete by physical ability? what's the standard?

height? weight? muscle ratio? hormone? age? race?

Traditionally people have been divided in sports competitions by weight class and age. Boxing, for example uses weight classes and age ranges.