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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What do people think?

97 replies

TheTamingOfTheresa · 06/08/2020 16:57

I’m in support of JK but came across this video dissecting her views. I’d be interested in what MN thinks

OP posts:
Gingerkittykat · 06/08/2020 17:03

I'm not watching a 58 minute video!

Dreeple · 06/08/2020 17:05

Me neither, but thanks.

EdgeOfACoin · 06/08/2020 17:13

I haven't watched it but I think some people on here have. I keep meaning to watch (but 58 minutes...!)

HoneysuckIejasmine · 06/08/2020 17:16

I haven't watched it but I'd say that you can't dissect her views. (To which I assume you mean "prove wrong".) You can spin them or misinterpret them, I'm sure.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 06/08/2020 17:26

Watched as far as the insistence that women must be called cis because it distinguishes between transwomen and women ..... I suspect the 58 minutes are needed to find the all the transphobic commas and full stops in JKR's essay.
They seem very earnest like many so people determined that women must comply with orders from our masters.

Thingybob · 06/08/2020 17:43

I watched this when it came out a few weeks ago as I like to hear all sides of an arguement but this didn't sway me at all. They agree with GC people that biological sex exists but then diverge from GCs by thinking that gender identity also exists and that it somehow trumps sex.

I found myself shouting at the video a few times as there was some absolute rubbish spouted (I wish I could remember the specifics) and it left me wondering how the hell these people have studied at doctorate level.

They do however seem nice enough people and I can understand why they wish to defend the trans position as so much of their lives has been taken up with Jamie transitioning although I doubt they had any new converts as a result of this recording as no matter how hard they try it's still totally illogical.

Cascade220 · 06/08/2020 17:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

queenofknives · 06/08/2020 17:58

It's a lot of nonsense. Their 'argument' rests on the idea that trans activists all agree that biological sex is real so what on earth is JK going on about? Then they talk about how JK supposedly downplays Maya Forstater's transphobia (without of course ever giving any evidence for this alleged transphobia) and then a lot of other nonsense about how JK makes faulty suggestions such as that OCD leads to transition. It's funny, though, because they explain early on that JK's essay all sounds very reasonable, and seems so sensible, and on the surface it is very good BUT underneath (if you have an hour to spare and don't mind a lot of lying and gaslighting) it's really, really bad and evil.

JK Rowling is arguably the most successful author the world has ever seen. I think it's the height of arrogance to suggest she doesn't know what she is saying. It's the height of paranoia to suggest her writing is somehow secretly ridden with coded transphobia. God it's just a load of fucking crap. What a lot of effort and hard work these young people have put in to being absolute fucking idiots. It's a waste of their time and potential. Never has the phrase 'get a life' seemed more apposite.

merrymouse · 06/08/2020 18:09

I’m in support of JK but came across this video dissecting her views. I’d be interested in what MN thinks

What do you think?

Why do you think we should spend 58 minutes watching this?

Thingybob · 06/08/2020 18:10

Ah I've remembered one of the stupid things that Jamie said. Apparently one if the reasons that referrals to GIDs has increased by over 4000% in the last decade or so, is that our population is increasing! Ha a population increase of 2-3% does not explain that massive increase.

TheTamingOfTheresa · 06/08/2020 18:12

@ SpartacusAutisticus I thought they were sweet and earnest and attempting to strike a conciliatory tone but didn’t really address the main issue JK was tackling which is women- only spaces

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SerenityNowwwww · 06/08/2020 18:15

@truthisarevolutionaryact

Watched as far as the insistence that women must be called cis because it distinguishes between transwomen and women ..... I suspect the 58 minutes are needed to find the all the transphobic commas and full stops in JKR's essay. They seem very earnest like many so people determined that women must comply with orders from our masters.
Read as far as the c-word. Nah. Can cis-off...

Here’s an idea... Why can’t we distinguish between women and trans women by using the expressions - women, transsexual woman, transvestite women? Then we all know where we stand...

Datun · 06/08/2020 18:16

@queenofknives

It's a lot of nonsense. Their 'argument' rests on the idea that trans activists all agree that biological sex is real so what on earth is JK going on about? Then they talk about how JK supposedly downplays Maya Forstater's transphobia (without of course ever giving any evidence for this alleged transphobia) and then a lot of other nonsense about how JK makes faulty suggestions such as that OCD leads to transition. It's funny, though, because they explain early on that JK's essay all sounds very reasonable, and seems so sensible, and on the surface it is very good BUT underneath (if you have an hour to spare and don't mind a lot of lying and gaslighting) it's really, really bad and evil.

JK Rowling is arguably the most successful author the world has ever seen. I think it's the height of arrogance to suggest she doesn't know what she is saying. It's the height of paranoia to suggest her writing is somehow secretly ridden with coded transphobia. God it's just a load of fucking crap. What a lot of effort and hard work these young people have put in to being absolute fucking idiots. It's a waste of their time and potential. Never has the phrase 'get a life' seemed more apposite.

Everyone has heard the counter arguments to 'sex is real and this is why it matters'.

And none of them make the slightest bit of sense, (unless you believe in male supremacy.)

JK Rowling's essay is reasonable and rational, and her experience resonates with almost all women.

If one is reduced to finding a hidden meaning, and a need to dissect quite straightforward statements, then might I suggest that the legs they have to stand on are notable by their absence.

Floisme · 06/08/2020 18:16

The young woman lost me when she tried to explain that 'cisgender woman' just means a woman who isn't trans. I find 'woman' perfectly adequate. But thank you.

justanotherneighinparadise · 06/08/2020 18:17

I suspect the subtext is #benice

Datun · 06/08/2020 18:17

@Floisme

The young woman lost me when she tried to explain that 'cisgender woman' just means a woman who isn't trans. I find 'woman' perfectly adequate. But thank you.
Defining women as women who are not men who identify as women is mind meltingly sexist.
EdgeOfACoin · 06/08/2020 18:22

Defining women as women who are not men who identify as women is mind meltingly sexist.

Beautifully put.

Floisme · 06/08/2020 18:22

Yes indeed. When did 'trans' become the default?

TheTamingOfTheresa · 06/08/2020 18:27

Hugely grateful to everyone who’s replied in the spirit of enquiry I’d intended. Some really thought provoking and intelligent analysis which I will reread and be informed and educated by . Thank you. To the couple of people who responded to my merely looking to engage , by being critical and unpleasant , if I’d wanted to be treated like this I’d have stayed on Twitter

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HoneysuckIejasmine · 06/08/2020 18:31

#bekind Wink

Cascade220 · 06/08/2020 18:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TorkTorkBam · 06/08/2020 18:41

I lasted two minutes.

By then I had been lectured that I am wrong if I object to being called a ciswoman. She patronisingly ally-splained that it is merely an adjective, which has been introduced so that men can now be classified as women too, if they want, you know by everyone calling them transwomen and redefining actual women as cis-women. Er, you've just described why I object and why I am offended.

I am a gender non-conforming woman. A transwoman is a man not a woman, which is why you are trying to force a "gender conforming" "cis" identity on me to accommodate his desires to be called a woman even though he is not. No.

Within those two minutes she also said all trans allies believe biological sex exists. What about the ones advising sporting bodies to let transwomen compete as women? What about the ones letting rapists into women's prisons? What about Freddie wanting to be listed as the father on the baby's birth certificate despite having been gestated in Freddie's womb from Freddie's egg and a male person's sperm? Go on Twitter and say biological sex is real. You will be told to educate yourself. And cancelled. For transphobia.

If that's how the first two minutes goes then I am not giving it another 56 minutes. I have several other videos waiting in my play queue, mainly about how to build a router jig, which are actually useful, impart loads of information, will change how I think and are considerably shorter than 58 minutes each.

Datun · 06/08/2020 18:47

Within those two minutes she also said all trans allies believe biological sex exists. What about the ones advising sporting bodies to let transwomen compete as women? What about the ones letting rapists into women's prisons? What about Freddie wanting to be listed as the father on the baby's birth certificate despite having been gestated in Freddie's womb from Freddie's egg and a male person's sperm?

From what I can see, some are now quite keen to say biological sex exists because it looks insane not to. But a) it doesn't mean what you think it means. And b) it doesn't matter.

SheWhoMustNotBeHeard · 06/08/2020 18:57

I tried to watch the video. I really did but when she said "we're trying to protect women's rights,including cis women's rights," I just couldn't get further.

JellyFishSquish · 06/08/2020 18:59

I thought they were sweet and earnest and attempting to strike a conciliatory tone

You see that's what women are expected to do. Be sweet and kind and conciliatory. But some women are actually very angry that JKR has been treated so horrifically for offering a very balanced and thoughtful response.

Don't be angry at the posters here who were short with you. Be angry as I am on JKR's behalf, and refuse to give head space to a sweet and earnest woman who is spending 58 minutes explaining how women are a sub-set of their own sex, and how someone who champions women and their rights is actually evil and hateful.

If some here are critical and unpleasant, well, I am not surprised. We are fucking fuming, actually.

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