Wheels coming off the wagon

[Kantastic]

So James Lindsay has trolled the Woke into arguing that 2+2=5.

He's being insufferably smug about it but honestly I think the smugness is earned here.

twitter.com/conceptualjames

Note that the logic of "trans women are women" is identical to the logic of 2+2=5, that has been admitted too.

twitter.com/ConceptualJames/status/1289939130898505730/photo/1

This strikes me as a great step forward in Discourse. Genuinely. It's all hanging out there now, it's going to get increasingly hard for people who want to be seen as Serious to defend this shit.

Posie should use 2+2=4 as her next poster.

Youth in the 90's were against multinational corporations/companies. Now those same multinationals are controlling and dictating the current youth culture. Money is made and those companies can avoid too much scrutiny of what they are really doing and how powerful they really are.

That is one theory I am exploring anyway...

Youth in the 90's were against multinational corporations/companies. Now those same multinationals are controlling and dictating the current youth culture. Money is made and those companies can avoid too much scrutiny of what they are really doing and how powerful they really are

Mmmm - subcultural theory. Initially discussed by the Birmingham school. Still discussed in some youth studies journals. I think the bottom line is that subcultures are generally appropriated and rarely lead to the kinds of social change the left hopes for.

I'm not sure how this applies to the current 'trans' craze. This would seem to more clearly align initially with powerful interests; patriarchy, big pharma, and some men with a particular kink I won't mention; thus, it is less subversive and more potentially powerful.

I've never seen this as a youth craze or subculture really. Since I came across it I've been of the view that it is top down and not bottom up.

Lamahaha,

I think it is what concerns me the most about this whole phenomenon; advocates seem so historically unaware.

There seems to be no understanding whatsoever that the basis of European civilisation in our modern age is almost entirely Aegypto-Greco-Arab in origin. That's why the Renaissance was the Renaissance, and our "modern" age roughly starts at that point.

So if you are talking about "dead white guys", you can only be referring to Northern Europeans from about the 15th century onward. These people are simply not the originators of modern European culture -- catalysts, yes, but originators, no.

I think what we are actually seeing, more than anything, is a wave of American cultural imperialism that has completely overwhelmed British culture and society -- and it has infected our country with a lot of bizarre perspectives that make absolutely no historical sense here or in Europe.

I read some stuff from supposedly educated people over in the States, and I just think ... shit, I can tell you have no real idea of what Europe, the Middle East or North Africa actually looks like, and you have no idea of the histories of these regions whatsoever.

If you are going to cancel Aristotle over his ideas about slavery and personhood, you've basically got to cancel pretty much everything prior to around 1920. You've got to cancel modernism because quite a few leading lights of that period in Britain were dubious about extending the franchise.

And I think this may very well be at the dark heart of the matter: a desire for a kind of Year Zero. Only that is quite difficult, considering you will have had to cancel Marx and Engels for their pretty horrific racism towards North and Central Asians, and Slavs.

But I suppose this is what happens when your university classes appear to be little more than psychological exercises in a fracturing of the self, and nothing more.

Everyone is cancelled. Everyone is totally wiped from the scene. Everyone is cancelled ... in our damnatio memoriae.

I've never seen this as a youth craze or subculture really.

But a lot of the language around gender and hysteria about ‘erasing my identity’ comes straight from Tumblr.

But a lot of the language around gender and hysteria about ‘erasing my identity’ comes straight from Tumblr

Yes, but who is really pulling the strings and taking what might be a minority movement to the heights it has reached?

There seems to be no understanding whatsoever that the basis of European civilisation in our modern age is almost entirely Aegypto-Greco-Arab in origin. That's why the Renaissance was the Renaissance, and our "modern" age roughly starts at that point.

Although also interesting is what phenomena such as 'The Silk Road' brought from the East.

I don't think any of this is a new phenomenon or that it is linked to modern education in any way. History tells us that people have always been able to override facts and common sense and believe in ridiculous things. It appears to be a propensity of human nature. Much of organised religion requires people to believe in things that are factually untrue or unproven, some of which involve self harm or horrible cruelty to others. I don't think it will ever be eradicated, and it will always be exploited by those with their own agendas to push.

Scrimp at the top of the JWs is the 'Governing Body', also known as 'The faithful and discreet slave', which is a bit of jargon from their version of the bible, taken from a parable. They are a group of men who have been in the organization as elders for many years. As one dies off, another would be appointed to replace. Everyone enters the organization at ground level, as it were, but only men will become elders and perhaps end up in the governing body. True believers. But obviously very heavily invested in the power end of the scale.

And let's be clear - while you will have some Wokists who are in it for comfort, and some who are in it for power, and most for a combination of the two, there are a significant number of people who are not true believers but are savvy to harnessing the usefulness of a powerful neo-religion that seems to carry all before it.

@DaisiesandButtercups

Youth in the 90's were against multinational corporations/companies. Now those same multinationals are controlling and dictating the current youth culture. Money is made and those companies can avoid too much scrutiny of what they are really doing and how powerful they really are.

That is one theory I am exploring anyway...

I call it the Chumbawamba theory.

Every ‘corporation’ that Chumbawamba named in the 1980s has gone utterly woke.

Unilever - owner of Ben & Jerry’s (giving out free ice cream in CHAZ/CHOP and calling for defunding the police)

Coca Cola - no longer advertising on ‘hate speech promoting’ facebook

The BBC - wokest of the woke

Just think, Sports Direct and Wetherspoons will be the ‘woke’ organisations of the 2050s!

borntobequiet I don't think you're wrong. I think we perhaps want to be able to tie this all up in a bow and explain every nuance of the huge Hydra monster that seems to be eating modern society, but for my money, it's not a huge coherent conspiracy of shadowy nefarious intent.

It's essentially some very simple common and innate human psychological tendencies, harnessed by a perfect storm of worldwide information technology and connectivity, a weird mixture of affluence, poverty and poor mental health, huge safeguarding failures that are mostly down to incompetence and laziness, and a small number of bad faith actors who are capitalizing on a chaotic situation, as bad faith actors always will.

It can be useful to see how some of it functions, without a doubt. But there is no magic bullet to solve it all - it's a many headed beast with tentacles everywhere, and the only real chance we have is to be persistent, to stand our ground and keep aiming for the weak spots. This is Feminism, really. As disheartening as it is to acknowledge, we're never going to be 'done'.

@TheRealMcKenna

I do love Chumbawamba!

Chumbawumba theory sounds good to me.

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Thanks, I will look up subculture theory. That sounds interesting.

Eric Weinstein ‘has spoken’ on the debate.

He is the brother of Bret Weinstein (professor of evolutionary biology from Evergreen at the heart of the race riots) and is a professor of mathematics.

twitter.com/ericrweinstein/status/1291100193488740357?s=21

what we are actually seeing, more than anything, is a wave of American cultural imperialism that has completely overwhelmed British culture and society -- and it has infected our country with a lot of bizarre perspectives that make absolutely no historical sense here or in Europe

Yes, this, absolutely. I don't fully understand all the differences, but it seems quite clear that this movement is a US-born one, and many of the cultural references and tropes just don't really work when applied here.

[quote TheRealMcKenna]Eric Weinstein ‘has spoken’ on the debate.

He is the brother of Bret Weinstein (professor of evolutionary biology from Evergreen at the heart of the race riots) and is a professor of mathematics.

twitter.com/ericrweinstein/status/1291100193488740357?s=21[/quote]
Excellent explanation! Some of the pure maths discourse was going over my head, but Eric’s thread pulled it all together and ‘Principle of Explosion‘ makes sense.
I am Team Z

“I‘ve waited for this to play out before commenting.

The issue with 2 + 2 = 5 playing out in @ConceptualJames’ feed is about the “Principle of Explosion” and is quite serious despite the stupidity of the exercise. It isn’t about math, conventions or assumptions. It’s about us.

The Principle of Explosion is that “From a contradiction, you can deduce anything.” and weirdly we just lined up:

TEAM Y: I don’t want to live in a world subject to claims of objective reality and so I always emphasize the subjective.

TEAM Z: [just reverse Subjective/Objective]”

/cont.

I like Weinstein’s take - if 2+2=5 then all of maths falls apart, and maybe that’s what they’re aiming for.

It took Russell and Whitehead hundreds of pages to prove 1+1=2 (mathematicians are nothing if not rigorous) and most of those pages were spent defining what they meant by ‘1’, ‘+’ ‘=‘ and ‘2’.

Maths has solid foundations and absolute proof at its disposal.

@Packingsoapandwater I agree with your take on GenX getting swallowed by the juveniles. Lord of the Flies indeed! The last 5 or so years I've felt as if I'm in a world I don't know and didn't build.

but it seems quite clear that this movement is a US-born one, and many of the cultural references and tropes just don't really work when applied here.

I just don't get this. Labour under Corbyn and long before was extremely anti the US and this isn't just a Trump thing, so why are the woke crowd so pro a US cultural import.

Can anyone make sense of that one?

The only thing I can put forward is the hard left anarchists who want to jump on absolutely any cause that causes deep division, to 'hasten revolution day'

@highame

but it seems quite clear that this movement is a US-born one, and many of the cultural references and tropes just don't really work when applied here.

I just don't get this. Labour under Corbyn and long before was extremely anti the US and this isn't just a Trump thing, so why are the woke crowd so pro a US cultural import.

Can anyone make sense of that one?

The only thing I can put forward is the hard left anarchists who want to jump on absolutely any cause that causes deep division, to 'hasten revolution day'

My take on it is that woke crowd, though they may say they are Corbynists, aren't actually fully aware of Corbyn's politics or perspectives, nor do they actually agree with him in reality. They were pro-Corbyn purely because they perceive Corbyn to be the "activist's" choice against the "Tories", which includes pretty much everyone in politics to them.

I mean, it's no secret that Corbyn has grave reservations about the EU. And, of course, he has; he's a Bennite. But I very much doubt you will find a British Corbynist or Wokist who is pro-Brexit.

With these Wokists, it is not so much about being anti-US as being anti-"the global hegemony", which they perceive as being the US as a state structure directed by the interests of a shadowy super-rich corporate elite. So anyone who is also "anti-the global hegemony" is, by default, an ally.

So rebellions within the US against the forces of this hegemony are welcomed. Only they don't seem to have figured out that they've been appropriated by the very corporatist and commercial forces that they so decry.

It kinda makes me think of the Iranian Revolution, to be honest. There are interesting echoes.

Every ‘corporation’ that Chumbawamba named in the 1980s has gone utterly woke...

I'd like to see the full list. Is it the lyrics to one of their songs?

I’m a bit disturbed by this thread. A lot of very different issues have been thrown together to be called ‘woke’. I’m a GC left wing feminist who supports black lives matters. I’m certainly not sure this person speaks for me. I haven’t seen this sort of thing on the feminist board before.

why are the woke crowd so pro a US cultural import.

I think it's simply because they are Very Online. Local and national youth subcultures aren't developing the way they used to because the US dominates English speaking social media.

Its the layer underneath that connects them.

Science denial in favour of perspectives, weighting placed on the WHO is saying this, rather than WHAT they are saying. Undermining of objectivity.
Zealotry and catchphrases.

It's all coming from the same well.

@Kantastic

Yes what you said about the US dominating online anglophone culture and through that other cultures too, as English becomes ever more the world lingua Franca in large part due to social media.

I don't think many of the "Woke" are even aware of the American roots of this or the actual specifics of Queer theory let alone being able to critically think about these things and their likely consequences or the relevance to their own culture/locality before buying into it all wholesale.

@Dancingdeer77

I’m a bit disturbed by this thread. A lot of very different issues have been thrown together to be called ‘woke’. I’m a GC left wing feminist who supports black lives matters. I’m certainly not sure this person speaks for me. I haven’t seen this sort of thing on the feminist board before.

You don't need this person to 'speak for you'. The OP posted and a conversation has ensued, and these are topics which we've been discussing on FWR for quite some time. I'm a broadly left wing feminist (the 'GC' is, imo, redundant) who supports anti-racism. Many of the women here are. What do you find disturbing particularly? FWIW, yes, it is disturbing, but I'm not sure you mean what I mean by that.