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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Wheels coming off the wagon

101 replies

Kantastic · 03/08/2020 12:15

So James Lindsay has trolled the Woke into arguing that 2+2=5.

He's being insufferably smug about it but honestly I think the smugness is earned here.

twitter.com/conceptualjames

Note that the logic of "trans women are women" is identical to the logic of 2+2=5, that has been admitted too.

twitter.com/ConceptualJames/status/1289939130898505730/photo/1

This strikes me as a great step forward in Discourse. Genuinely. It's all hanging out there now, it's going to get increasingly hard for people who want to be seen as Serious to defend this shit.

Posie should use 2+2=4 as her next poster.

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 04/08/2020 09:50

This is why we hold the line on language. Because Wokery uses language for a different purpose. Once you concede to the demanded changes, you have handed the purpose of language over, and it is no longer a tool of clear communication, it is a mechanism of control, both of oneself to 'check your own thinking' as a sort of buffer against sinning, and of others, to mark them as outsiders, and to keep all, outsiders and adherents, slightly off kilter and therefore pliable.

miri1985 · 04/08/2020 10:15

So if 2+2=4 means women are women and redefining the numbers to make 2+2=5 means transwomen are women then the latter and the numbers being redefined means that women aren't women.

This really is the biggest bunch of nonsense, just last month everyone was pretending "no no one ever said biological sex wasn't real" and now they're arguing this

highame · 04/08/2020 10:23

So, here's another. Each 'age' has it's own wokery but not all are significant e.g. I was a teenager during the 60's and we were breaking away from our parents and those who weren't cool. We had numbers behind us, so we have gone through society making changes to suit us. Most of us then went out into the real world and lived our lives but a certain number stuck with certain aspects 'Hippies' spring to mind.

Are 'youth' bound to have cult in their lives? Today, is it significant because of the internet in that the 'cult' can bond easier?

RadandMad · 04/08/2020 10:31

@Shedbuilder

I've watched most of it and need to think about it. My initial reaction is that it's both useful and offers insight into queer theory and its origins and aims, and that it explains a lot of what we're experiencing today. But there's a lot of casual sexism and questionable throwaway remarks about black people. They seem to say several times that racism is kind of over. They're also pretty dismissive of second wave feminism.

Just like Jordan Peterson they're privileged white men who can't begin to understand what it might be like not to be like them.

Totally agree. I've listened to Lindsay a lot, and I think he's spot on about identity politics and the origins and consequences of critical theory. But he's undeniably full of himself, and I do get the occasional whiff of misogyny. He loves to take a punch at feminism.
mummmy2017 · 04/08/2020 10:33

I love how transwomen think they are more of a woman than a real woman.
If you see a woman in her PJs, no makeup, bed hair, needing a shower because they are having period pains and just feeling like crap, then your seeing us at our worse at the truth of what womanhood is.
If you need warpaint , heels , sex clothing, hair do and surgery to be a woman, someone miss sold you an ideal big time.

FloralBunting · 04/08/2020 10:41

I actually think that 'youth tribalism' is a natural part of human development. That's why so many of us here have recognized similar group behaviours among the younger proponents of this because we lived it ourselves as Goths, etc. or even just via fangirling Boy Bands to an intense degree.

And yes, the internet is a huge mechanism in both the success and the hold that Wokery maintains. There's a good thread on here about how lockdown and parent's increased awareness of what their youngsters are doing online has actually helped those young people and children find a path away from it.
If you think about it, there's the internet, on devices we can hold in our hand and access 24/7, and that mean we can be accessed 24/7, that we can't go into our house or our room and shut the door on things, that privacy is becoming a quaint notion because any conversation you have via 'private message' could be screenshot and shared anywhere, is fertile ground for all sorts of hugely unhealthy thinking, from the swift dissemination of cult mantras and distortions, to basic paranoia because Doxxing has become a thing.

Oh for the days when the worst thing was wearing a pair of fake Doc Martens and being discovered pretending they were the real deal.Grin

highame · 04/08/2020 10:46

😁 It really is interesting stuff. Yes, the tribalism is evident in all generations but some stand out, at this moment it's difficult to tell how much this one is going to stick

TheRealMcKenna · 04/08/2020 10:56

I actually think that 'youth tribalism' is a natural part of human development. That's why so many of us here have recognized similar group behaviours among the younger proponents of this because we lived it ourselves as Goths, etc. or even just via fangirling Boy Bands to an intense degree.

The difference now is that it has escaped the sixth form colleges and polytechnics. It’s throughout the media, in the corporate training and HR, local government and the justice system.

The only exception is the very top layers of institutions which remain the croneyist havens of stale pale maleness they have always been.

noblegiraffe · 04/08/2020 11:07

OH THANK GOD can this now be the end of it? The 2+2=5 nonsense has even made it onto my maths twitter safe haven. A Fields Medal winner no less.

I cannot believe that they have fallen for it again. Sokal should have been the end of this back in the 90s - trying to apply post-modern discourse to science and now maths makes you look stupid because objective reality exists.

I’ve started rereading Francis Wheen’s How Mumbo-Jumbo Conquered the World. The chapter on post-modernist deconstruction should be required reading for anyone entering the trans women are women debate.

FloralBunting · 04/08/2020 11:21

@TheRealMcKenna

I actually think that 'youth tribalism' is a natural part of human development. That's why so many of us here have recognized similar group behaviours among the younger proponents of this because we lived it ourselves as Goths, etc. or even just via fangirling Boy Bands to an intense degree.

The difference now is that it has escaped the sixth form colleges and polytechnics. It’s throughout the media, in the corporate training and HR, local government and the justice system.

The only exception is the very top layers of institutions which remain the croneyist havens of stale pale maleness they have always been.

Well, yes, but this is why I point out that the religious/tribal impulse has those two prime drivers - comfort and/or power. For the younger adherents, it's mostly about the comfort aspect. For those who are seated in corporate or institutional positions, it's very much about the power. There's overlap between the two drivers, obviously, but I think that's the general balance between the youth movement where the focus is comfort and the more embedded policy capture end of things where it is power.
Packingsoapandwater · 04/08/2020 11:22

I can't even. I just can't. The whole thing is now just so surreal that the only response I have these days is just to take the piss.

Woke people think racism, sexism, and bigotry are baked into the language and concepts we use. Since we think and communicate with language, if the language we use is inherently racist and sexist then our communication, and the ideas we communicate will be racist and sexist...

We don't even have grammatical genders in English. Can you imagine the sheer headfuck it would induce in the woke world if chairs were feminine and mirrors masculine? Not to mention the volume of academic papers about The Gendered Construction of the Seated Reflective Experience.

Grin

And as for mathematics and science being, I dunno, tools of white supremacist oppression, I guess we'd better knock down the Great Pyramid of Giza. It's way too triangular to stand; there must be some acutely bigoted equations going on there.

I am not going to say anything about the foundation of western mathematics and science standing on the work of the Sumerians, Egyptians, Greeks and Arabs ... cos, you know, they are all dead white guys.

Packingsoapandwater · 04/08/2020 11:27

Noblegiraffe,

I think you will find that 2+2=5 if we are counting tomatoes, and one of said tomatoes has a strategically placed one-sided mirror before them in which to admire their own reflection.

As is often said by no-one in particular ever, narcissism has the power to multiply that which is only felt in the self.

I am legion. So is that tomato.

Grin
FloralBunting · 04/08/2020 11:36

@Packingsoapandwater

I can't even. I just can't. The whole thing is now just so surreal that the only response I have these days is just to take the piss.

Woke people think racism, sexism, and bigotry are baked into the language and concepts we use. Since we think and communicate with language, if the language we use is inherently racist and sexist then our communication, and the ideas we communicate will be racist and sexist...

We don't even have grammatical genders in English. Can you imagine the sheer headfuck it would induce in the woke world if chairs were feminine and mirrors masculine? Not to mention the volume of academic papers about The Gendered Construction of the Seated Reflective Experience.

Grin

And as for mathematics and science being, I dunno, tools of white supremacist oppression, I guess we'd better knock down the Great Pyramid of Giza. It's way too triangular to stand; there must be some acutely bigoted equations going on there.

I am not going to say anything about the foundation of western mathematics and science standing on the work of the Sumerians, Egyptians, Greeks and Arabs ... cos, you know, they are all dead white guys.

I'll just mention here that Quantum physics is a bloody gift for these cod science lovers. Because it's amazing and fiercely difficult to grasp, and mostly theoretical because it's very nature defies a lot of the recording methods in Newtonian physics, those who are fond of using scientific sounding terms can apply a few Quantum physics idea out of context and come up with any bloody conclusion they want to.

They obviously have as much credibility as a model in a white coat on a shampoo or face cream ad using a made up 'sciencey' word, but it doesn't stop lots and lots of people falling for it as 'authoritative'

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 04/08/2020 11:49

I graduated from a Goldsmiths flagship course in the mid 2000s (Fine Art Practice with Contemporary Critical Theory) and have been slowly deprogramming myself ever since.

I thank Lindsay and Pluckrose for giving me the last bits of the puzzle that have allowed me to break free - it wasn’t that I, a working class single mum from a council estate didn’t ‘get it’. It was because they were gaslighting me into believing that ‘its’ that I got had to be deconstructed into meaningless gumph.

FloralBunting · 04/08/2020 12:02

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong

I graduated from a Goldsmiths flagship course in the mid 2000s (Fine Art Practice with Contemporary Critical Theory) and have been slowly deprogramming myself ever since.

I thank Lindsay and Pluckrose for giving me the last bits of the puzzle that have allowed me to break free - it wasn’t that I, a working class single mum from a council estate didn’t ‘get it’. It was because they were gaslighting me into believing that ‘its’ that I got had to be deconstructed into meaningless gumph.

yeah, it's remarkable really - it's almost the opposite of education, because it quite deliberately strips you of any firm points of reference with which to evaluate or increase knowledge and understanding. Calling it 'education' is just a label, like calling things 'feminism' or 'socialism' that bear no relation to what those words actually mean.
NonnyMouse1337 · 04/08/2020 12:13

Fantastic explanation about the mindset and beliefs that are used and reinforced in high control religions, FloralBunting.
The description of how it works in Jehovah's Witnesses is spot on and lots of parallels with the woke/social justice belief system.

You can't really reason with people in the grip of such a mindset because it's based on feelings, emotions and resisting outsiders etc and not anything rational or open to critique.

I think you should definitely write that book. Smile

Packingsoapandwater · 04/08/2020 12:37

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong

I graduated from a Goldsmiths flagship course in the mid 2000s (Fine Art Practice with Contemporary Critical Theory) and have been slowly deprogramming myself ever since.

I thank Lindsay and Pluckrose for giving me the last bits of the puzzle that have allowed me to break free - it wasn’t that I, a working class single mum from a council estate didn’t ‘get it’. It was because they were gaslighting me into believing that ‘its’ that I got had to be deconstructed into meaningless gumph.

Goldsmiths was pretty intellectually rigorous in the early 90s; it was seen as the college for Oxbridge rejects from non-elite backgrounds. I'm not sure what happened, but what I do know is that the intake changed sometime in the early 00s ... and became a hellova lot wealthier.

I had a friend who was a lecturer there and she said that she had to pull some of her second and third year option courses sometime around 1999 because the students could no longer critically cope with the material. I also know that with the introduction of the REF (or whatever it was called back them, I can't remember), the college let a lot of old style lecturers go around that time (the ones that specialised in teaching and learning) and brought research-focused academics in.

Mind you, it was, I think, the first HE institution to run an MA with gender in the title.

But, back in the 90s, they were still really hesitant to look at certain postmodern concepts because they were so problematic in origin: Paul De Mann's exposed history of writing pro-Nazi articles, for example, really made his work on the relationship between authorship and script a bit suspect.

It's a very weird thing for me all this because I was trained in postmodern thinking as a method to get towards Truth (or the Total Phenomenon) through the application of a multiplicity of perspectives.

In short, if a load of people see an object and all report it has four legs, a seat, and a back of some description and you can sit on it, then it is quite highly likely to be a chair.

Likewise, if you read a hundred or more reports from all different perspectives about an incident or a place, you will gain a more accurate picture of the Total Phenomenon of that incident or place. I mean, this is the whole concept behind Calvino's Invisible Cities: all the cities he describes are Venice.

The postmodern perspective is opposed to the old Victorian "bourgeois" way of thinking that a chair is a chair because some important person says so. It could be seen as a democratisation of meaning, I suppose. Indeed, modernism and postmodernism can only be understood with reference to the movements as reactions to the 19th century bourgeois way of seeing.

But this new thing, which people are calling postmodernism, is nothing of the kind. It rejects the democracy of perspectives in creating meaning in favour of a nouveau authoritative set of statements issued by a group of illusive supposed demigogues: a new Victorianism, you could say.

It's all very odd.

Icantreachthepretzels · 04/08/2020 12:50

those who are fond of using scientific sounding terms can apply a few Quantum physics idea out of context and come up with any bloody conclusion they want to.

That reminds me of how Young Earth Creationists will use the second (?) law of thermodynamics to prove that the universe can't be as old as all that.
Of course people patiently explain that the earth is not part of a closed system so it proves nothing - but still the YEC cling to it and people who don't know anything about thermodynamics accept what they say as sounding reasonable.

The irony, of course, is that many of the (probably bearded) young men who argued so vociferously against misusing thermodynamics this way (and had so much fun laughing at the people who did it) are now probably exactly the people earnestly professing that of course 2 + 2 = 5.

highame · 04/08/2020 12:52

I had a friend who was a lecturer there and she said that she had to pull some of her second and third year option courses sometime around 1999 because the students could no longer critically cope with the material.
In short, if a load of people see an object and all report it has four legs, a seat, and a back of some description and you can sit on it, then it is quite highly likely to be a chair. I was actually taught this way.

Is that the answer to all of this? The education system has become lazy and no longer teaches people to think?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 04/08/2020 13:06

I've watched most of it and need to think about it. My initial reaction is that it's both useful and offers insight into queer theory and its origins and aims, and that it explains a lot of what we're experiencing today. But there's a lot of casual sexism and questionable throwaway remarks about black people. They seem to say several times that racism is kind of over. They're also pretty dismissive of second wave feminism

Yes. I've watched a lot of their stuff and it's pretty clear that they don't understand second-wave feminism and they conflate it with queer theory, whilst acting all smug. They make me very uncomfortable.

Imnobody4 · 04/08/2020 13:08

I actually think that 'youth tribalism' is a natural part of human development. That's why so many of us here have recognized similar group behaviours among the younger proponents of this because we lived it ourselves as Goths, etc. or even just via fangirling Boy Bands to an intense degree.
I'm not sure it's a natural part of development. My parents left school at 14. They moved into the workforce. I can't help but feel the extension of education by it's nature age segregated has had an unexpected bad effect. The teenager is a 20th century phenomenon, created by marketing.
I'm starting to feel young people should work for several years before university to mature. Maybe education is wasted on the young especially as some of them seem to remain in universities doing 'activism' as opposed to rigorous research.

FloralBunting · 04/08/2020 13:10

@Icantreachthepretzels

those who are fond of using scientific sounding terms can apply a few Quantum physics idea out of context and come up with any bloody conclusion they want to.

That reminds me of how Young Earth Creationists will use the second (?) law of thermodynamics to prove that the universe can't be as old as all that.
Of course people patiently explain that the earth is not part of a closed system so it proves nothing - but still the YEC cling to it and people who don't know anything about thermodynamics accept what they say as sounding reasonable.

The irony, of course, is that many of the (probably bearded) young men who argued so vociferously against misusing thermodynamics this way (and had so much fun laughing at the people who did it) are now probably exactly the people earnestly professing that of course 2 + 2 = 5.

Very similar mindset in slightly more mainstream conservative evangelicalism where YEC views spring from, yes. It's not quite such a good analogy as the more highly controlling closed belief systems like the JWs, because there is less emphasis on separatism, but there are definitely similar mechanisms, and there are certainly pockets of conservative evangelicalism that function in a very much more controlling way.
YetAnotherSpartacus · 04/08/2020 13:12

The teenager is a 20th century phenomenon, created by marketing

The social category of 'youth' as we understand it today was created much earlier that the teenager, which is a 40s, going on 50s, US phenomenon.

Jon Savage has written about this.

Also, the term and experience of this life stage have very different meanings cross-culturally and historically.

There is nothing natural about it.

FloralBunting · 04/08/2020 13:19

@highame

I had a friend who was a lecturer there and she said that she had to pull some of her second and third year option courses sometime around 1999 because the students could no longer critically cope with the material. In short, if a load of people see an object and all report it has four legs, a seat, and a back of some description and you can sit on it, then it is quite highly likely to be a chair. I was actually taught this way.

Is that the answer to all of this? The education system has become lazy and no longer teaches people to think?

Wrt this, and Imnobody4's comment about extending education feeding into this, I would say yes, that's probably a big factor. Our education system is not geared to teach independent thinking skills or assessment, and barely anyone can grasp the basics of logic etc. Because of this shift in emphasis (which is grounded in good intentions about inclusivity, financial constraints and probably a fuckton of queer theory) and coupled with this idea that young people should ideally stay in some form of academic education until their early twenties, I think our culture has probably created a perfect storm situation which, once you throw in social media, is your basic tinder box.
Packingsoapandwater · 04/08/2020 13:27

"Is that the answer to all of this? The education system has become lazy and no longer teaches people to think?"

I'm not sure. My understanding was always that you learnt "knowledge" (facts, figures, rules) at school, and then you went to university, or joined a discussion society affiliated to a local institute, to learn how to critically think about all that knowledge.

I certainly wasn't taught how to think critically at school. I only came across the idea that history may not be "black letter" knowledge when I was introduced to the notion of historiography when I was 17 in an A level class.

It strikes me that was may have happened is that the transition between the childlike state of accepting "facts", which is vital for survival in youth, and the adult state of assessing and categorising information, which is vital for survival as an adult, has somehow gone awry.

And there's a number of reasons why this may have happened. Today's woke youths were indoctrinated in statements and facts that they had to regurgitate in exams. Children have been kept younger longer, and out of the workplace until their early 20s. Young people are exposed to a greater range of ideologues through the internet and are not as exposed to the blunter edges of the adult world. Obsessive gaming consolidates a sense of hyper-reality where fact and fiction collide in a huge mash-up.

I don't think these people have been encouraged to adopt an adult mentality. And I suspect universities, in their quest for the almighty tuition fee, have become parental in approach, which has exacerbated the problem.