What have I just watched on BBC News from their gender correspondence?

[Unformidable]

Did anyone else catch this report from the BBC gender correspondent? Apparently there have always been multiple genders in some cultures but this has been lost in time.

@Aesopfable SnikkertyLemon why do you think gender is not simply sexism? Why do you think strictly identified ‘third gender’ options in society is a better idea getting rid of gendered expectations so that men can cook and weave or women can take leadership positions and not be burdened with care commitments? I wasn't aware that I thought That! I was merely referring to being accepting of people who identify as their non birth assigned gender.

[quote SnickettyLemon]**@Aesopfable* SnikkertyLemon why do you think gender is not simply sexism? Why do you think strictly identified ‘third gender’ options in society is a better idea getting rid of gendered expectations so that men can cook and weave or women can take leadership positions and not be burdened with care commitments?* I wasn't aware that I thought That! I was merely referring to being accepting of people who identify as their non birth assigned gender.[/quote]
I've been pondering on how much 21st century western thinking has been applied to these concepts which, by the admission of their own advocates, were 'lost'.

For example, Snickety sees it as these societies were 'accepting of people who identify as their non birth assigned gender'. I see it as these societies didn't really accept these people, they instead chose to push them into a separate category to mark them out as 'other'.

And maybe it was both of these things, across different societies and time periods. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Snicketty is wrong. Maybe we both are. And TBH, I don't know enough about the subject to say either way. But this is just my opinion.

As a society, we know that it's important to look at history in context. I don't see how this is different.

No. Sex is observed at birth. The process of gender is part of socialisation.

Sex is the biological bit; gender is the societal expectations and stereotypes that are projected/expected according to sex, to a greater or lesser degree.

Cross post - my post was responding to '(non) birth assigned gender'

I would say gender exists far prior to birth - prior to conception, even, as it's a societal construct that can be tied to/associated with a sexed body before, during and after birth.

Sex is a fact. Gender is (as we can see) highly debatable.

@DickKerrLadies. You make a good point. I would actually prefer it if we didn't have to define people by their gender/sex.

I’m not defending colonialism obviously, but I quite like this 17th-century colonialist with his long hair, heels, tights, and frilly outfit.

study.com/academy/lesson/america-in-the-1600s-history-timeline.html

Gender isn’t fixed. It’s just a range of cultural expressions that change over time in how they are arbitrarily assigned to the sexes - and there have always been people who didn’t fit into those sexist roles.

Today we see tragic and depressing cases of children and teens being encouraged to think they can’t be a boy or a girl because they like something that’s not part of the correct sexist gender prescription. That’s why pieces like this are dangerous - not because they look at the phenomenon, which could be done honestly and interestingly - but because they encourage the view that gender categories are a good and right-on thing.

So Snicketty I too would like to see your actual argument for why this is “refreshing”. Genuinely - join the debate with your reasoned explanation, that’s what debate is. But just getting on a high horse about other people being narrow-minded, when the narrow-mindedness of gender is the exact thing they are objecting to, is not an argument and makes you look like you lack the ability to back up what you say.

Sorry snicketty i x-posted with you - glad that you’ve rejoined the thread to discuss it!

@SnickettyLemon

The narrow minded people who won't accept other's views.

I don't think the people who don't see men liking cooking and weaving as anything ground-breaking are the narrow-minded ones...

I was merely referring to being accepting of people who identify as their non birth assigned gender.

Ok, fair enough, I was making presumptions about what you thought about gender. What is it that you think ‘people who identify as their non birth assigned gender’ are identifying with if not socially imposed sex stereotypes? Do you think it is a good idea to reinforce ‘gender’ or do you think it would better better to demolish gendered expectations and get rid of gender so men and women can follow their own path rather than be limited by gendered roles?

I was really disappointed in this as she's been so good on other topics.

So many of her reports are strongly feminist in the true sense of the world.

@Aesopfable ^^ Basically I think people should be able to follow any (legal) path they chose, and not be defined by any stereotypical assumption.

it would have been interesting if it had explored the extent to which third genders are a mechanism to allow people in a culture to be same-sex attracted. If there's no connection at all, I would be equally interested.

Yes this was very much what it was lacking.

Especially as many other reports she's done focus on the gender aspect of women's rights in the original sense of the word. Gender roles resulting in denial of education, oppression and actual harm to women.

Basically I think people should be able to follow any (legal) path they chose, and not be defined by any stereotypical assumption. And what happens when the legal path they choose comes into conflict with the legal path other people choose?

That is the heart of the debate about genders. It has sod all to do with trans rights being 'rolled back' or anyone being more or less vulnerable than anyone else.

All of that is justification, not the issue.

What happens when 2 legal lives come into conflict? That is the debate TRAs will not allow to happen. That is what women are being silenced over.

What do you think?

There was an appalling load of slides on these "genders" on Instagram recently that now seem to have gone, or I'd link.

I'm in an RSE fb group for teachers and they were all delightedly applauding them. And said they'd probably crop the references to JKR sucking dick at the bottom.

I was agog and pointed out how sexist and misogynistic they were. The author was a young woman on Instagram.

That teachers were thinking of using that in lessons on trans both made me feel sick and proves that this shit has to be defined and contextualised.

A couple of teachers said they'd only use it for university level. Even then I'd only be using it to see who spotted the misogyny within it.

I would actually prefer it if we didn't have to define people by their gender/sex.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'define', but sometimes it is appropriate to categorise people according to their sex.

People don't have a 'gender', since gender is a term used to describe the social and cultural expectations which are placed on people because of their sex. This we could certainly do without. But putting people in a different box because they don't conform to the gendered expectations of people of their sex is not the way to go about this.

gender is a term used to describe the social and cultural expectations which are placed on people because of their sex.

Great way of putting it.

Excellent example of historical gender sex expectations in terms of attire:

https://www.facebook.com/cbbc/videos/1342890422499446/?vh=e&extid=EESjnpMrjZr5uOwA

[quote SnickettyLemon]@Aesopfable ^^ Basically I think people should be able to follow any (legal) path they chose, and not be defined by any stereotypical assumption.[/quote]
Good, then you are in agreement with most GC women who do not believe we should be defined by gender either. If I may ask another question.

Sex is obviously important - our reproductive roles, physical ability at sports, differences in criminal behaviour and place of victims, differential responses to drugs etc, size of PPE face masks provided by hospitals, etc. Do you agree that women’s (observed females at birth or in utero) sex differences must be acknowledged and provision must be made for them (such as single sex spaces, sex-based differences in medical research, maternity and contraceptive services, refuges)?

I would actually prefer it if we didn't have to define people by their gender/sex.

Any heterosexual who chooses someone of the opposite sex as their partner or any homosexual who chooses someone of the same sex is offending against this.