What have I just watched on BBC News from their gender correspondence?

[Unformidable]

Did anyone else catch this report from the BBC gender correspondent? Apparently there have always been multiple genders in some cultures but this has been lost in time.

OMG!

Yes, as a GC woman I know all about gender fluidity - we had gender bending back in the 1980s and before that were The Dandies, Macaroni's and all sorts of Western gender fluidity over all eras.

We know that. It hasn't been forgotten by any except those who insist that you can change sex by popping on a frock and really wanting to be a woman!

Since when was weaving a female occupation?

(The picture is of the fine new cloth being woven for the emperor’s new clothes)

Ah yes! A beautiful web of lies to cover the age old misogyny! Behold!

Yes i watched this

And thats about all i can say really

Aesop - hand weaving was a man's occupation when it was a highly skilled, prized, and highly paid one. Since automation, its become a 'female' hobby type thing...

Aesop - hand weaving was a man's occupation when it was a highly skilled, prized, and highly paid one. Since automation, its become a 'female' hobby type thing...

And the same has happened to computer programming only in reverse. Once a boring menial thing "for women", now a highly skilled, highly paid industry "for men". Funny how that happens isn't it...

Oh yes I saw the amazing weaving man! The way he said “I weave” was like “gosh, bet that BLOWS YOUR MIND’ :o. It struck me however that the only reason it sounded so daft was because of the moronic conflation of sex and gender we’re now suffering from, and it being framed In those terms. Clearly, this man’s society has/traditionally had gendered roles for men and women, but also has some categories for non-conformers - which makes sense as it allows for those people and avoids conflict. Much like the concept of a tomboy, who no one thinks is male, it’s just a name for a noticeably non-gender-conforming girl. Of course such extra categories are only needed because of the stereotypical gender roles, but at least they give people a way to be different.

Not for a second do I believe that society held that to mean that you could be born a man and decide you were a woman. There is no suggestion that they were confused about what sex was.

The whole intro/correspondent’ s waffling was meaningless guff as it totally failed to grasp what gender actually is (no surprise there)

@Aesopfable

Since when was weaving a female occupation?

Love that picture.

But weaving is a fascinating example of how culturally arbitrary gender (in the sense of sex-stereotypes) is.

Medieval England - men's work (and paid much more than spinning which is women's work - my local museum has a fascinating exhibit on the wool trade which shows just what different craftsmen and craftswomen earned at what points up the chain from sheep to cloth sale).

Medieval Iceland - women's work.

Navajo in SW North America, most of the 20th century - women's work.

I'm sure there are loads of other examples. (My mum once told me that in northern Scotland a woman's first task as a married woman was to weave her burial shroud... because childbirth, well, you never knew...)

I used to work for a man who would end meetings with the shouted, fist pumping exhortation, "Let's get weaving."

It still makes me snigger.

@DianasLasso

I have had several long conversations about this with a friend who is an anthropology prof. "Third genders" (sworn virgins, bacha posh, hijra, three spirit people, fa-afine) tend to arise in cultures with very rigidly socially enforced sex stereotypes, and often deeply entrenched homophobia, as a kind of safety valve.

Somehow I doubt the BBC noted this.

Same. It's actually an indicator of gender binaries being rigid, apparently.

Yes and I think there have been many such safety valves and ways of dealing with non-fitters-in of various kinds, even just in British society. It’s always seemed to me that the option of being a nun or monk allowed gay or gnc people to escape from the expectation of marriage and performing a gender stereotype. I also think the hermit and wise woman “roles” in society would have been very helpful for people with autism-like differences, for example.

wellbehaved I wish I knew more about native American cultures - from what she said, it was very complex and varied from tribe to tribe. One thing that was fascinating was that while, on the whole, "three spirit" (or whatever) people arose as a social category in tribes with rigidly delineated gender roles, this wasn't always the case. For example, the Iroqois had pretty strictly delineated roles, but didn't have a third gender (though, as she pointed out to me, they were interesting in that although occupations were segregated according to sex, the society was matrilineal, land ownership passed from mother to daughter, and women wielded considerable political power). Further west, one of the warrior tribes (can't remember whether it was the Comanche or Apache) which had very flexible gender roles (even including some of the warrior roles) but still had "three spirit" people. So on the whole the rule of thumb was "society with deeply entrenched sex segregation of occupations => third gender category of some sort", there were interesting exceptions to this general rule (both ways round).

I agree with other posters, it would have been interesting if it had explored the extent to which third genders are a mechanism to allow people in a culture to be same-sex attracted. If there's no connection at all, I would be equally interested.

And in other news - the Pope is Catholic!

Another Mother Tongue by Judy Grahn (from 1985, and won a Stonewall book award), looks at lesbian and gay history, and also accounts of other genders, I think from the point of view as a way for societies to accommodate lesbian and gay people.

This has been done in terms of womyns and lesbian history, but that is of course unimportant compared to the new-fangled queer theory view of history, which can't allow the incorrect view........

@DianasLasso

I have had several long conversations about this with a friend who is an anthropology prof. "Third genders" (sworn virgins, bacha posh, hijra, three spirit people, fa-afine) tend to arise in cultures with very rigidly socially enforced sex stereotypes, and often deeply entrenched homophobia, as a kind of safety valve.

Somehow I doubt the BBC noted this.

Exactly.

Not progressive at all!

I am so sick of fucking gender.

'Gender correspondent'.

Fuck me.

Personally I thought it was absolutely refreshing to see that , thankfully some people in other nations are clearly more forward thinking and accepting of others than some of the narrow minded people on Mumsnet.

@ScrimpshawTheSecond

'Gender correspondent'.

Fuck me.

Surely that would involve some element of biological sex?

It feels so odd to see the young refashion rigid sex roles into something progressive by having an out for the nonbinary people.

@SnickettyLemon

Personally I thought it was absolutely refreshing to see that , thankfully some people in other nations are clearly more forward thinking and accepting of others than some of the narrow minded people on Mumsnet.

Nothing narrower than gender.

Which narrow minded people would these be? Not those nasty ones who don't conflate ideology with science?

I think that's true though. In the 89s we had gender benders as they were called. But we didn't pretend they were a different sex

The narrow minded people who won't accept other's views.