What have I just watched on BBC News from their gender correspondence?

[Unformidable]

Did anyone else catch this report from the BBC gender correspondent? Apparently there have always been multiple genders in some cultures but this has been lost in time.

Why should you “accept others’ views” that are a load of sexist regressive bollocks? I don’t mean the Native American traditions, I mean the ridiculous assertion that not conforming to gender roles is some kind of special right on trans magic and challenge to sex categories, when it is in fact totally normal.

Traditions are not necessarily exempt from being sexist, regressive bollocks just by virtue of being historical.

Do you accept others’ views that women should stay at home, or that one race is better than another, or that Trump is a great leader? If not why not? Maybe you have critical thinking capacity and object to some views? Well I object to the idea that people have a “gender” based on stereotyped roles applied to the sexes.

I can accept that other people have different views. That doesn’t mean I can’t point out when they make no sense.

No of course not - I expect some Native American traditions definitely were sexist. Some less so, as has been discussed on the thread. Like most historical traditions. I’m just clarifying that it’s the current gender bollocks that is grinding my gears on this occasion. I don’t love historical sexism either, but at least it was not, by definition, as regressive as the gender bollocks of the present day.

A gender correspondent? Sounds like something from The Day Today, if anyone remembers that.

Now if they called them a sex stereotype correspondent everyone would see this for what it is.

The sworn virgins in Albania were the only example I can think of where it was only women who were allowed to become a third gender. Many third genders have been for gay men, and as others have pointed out, this was because the societies were very rigid about sex roles and hierarchical rankings so that gay men didn't comfortably fit inside the category 'men,' with its privileges.

What I have read about the sworn virgins in Albania suggests that they were a way for a family with no male heirs to continue the line by having one daughter lives as a man, learning all the male skills about running the farm, caring for the aged parents, and so on.

She was not allowed to have children, however, though she was allowed to have a female partner. I recall that her job was to be a place-holder for the ultimate male heir when one of her siblings' sons grew up.

It is a fascinating custom, and partly because it is so clearly based on the maintenance of the family's economic well-being and also based on the maintenance of patriarchy. The sworn virgins couldn't have children so that they couldn't pass the farm on to their own children. They could assume the male gender role only by completely relinquishing the female gender role.

It is unclear if becoming a sworn virgin was a choice or something a woman was forced to do for the sake of her family.

So the BBC is paying for an LGBT correspondent and a gender and identity correspondent (yes really) but I can’t find a single named correspondent with responsibility for women’s issues or indeed race.
Am I missing something here?

@SorryAuntLydia

So the BBC is paying for an LGBT correspondent and a gender and identity correspondent (yes really) but I can’t find a single named correspondent with responsibility for women’s issues or indeed race. Am I missing something here?

And meant to say ... a great example of where the BBC could save licence fee money without affecting quality

@DianasLasso

I have had several long conversations about this with a friend who is an anthropology prof. "Third genders" (sworn virgins, bacha posh, hijra, three spirit people, fa-afine) tend to arise in cultures with very rigidly socially enforced sex stereotypes, and often deeply entrenched homophobia, as a kind of safety valve.

Somehow I doubt the BBC noted this.

This. India has some of the most rigid gender roles on the planet - the only truly socially acceptable way for people to come out of those roles is to be a sacred virgin (male or female).

Being an Eunch isn’t anywhere close to socially acceptable - it was a ‘safety net’ role for poor (usually abandoned) intersex or mutilated boys whose penises were irreperably damaged. And as they have an important role in Indian culture it was legally recognised. It isn’t really a role ‘normal’men can easily ‘transition’ into - and many Indian Eunuchs feel their identity as the ‘third gender’ is being hijacked by various Indian LGBT communities to try and make being gay more socially acceptable amongst the rich.

Note that in India there is no place for trans men. Only trans women. Which goes to show how deeply intrenched the gender roles in India are.

I do laugh at the batshit insertions of "narrow minded mumset" in an interesting thread sharing far more information than the BBC could manage.

In this interview, Indian film maker Vaishnavi Sundar talks about the role of eunuchs in Indian society. It is not some la la land of gender fluidity, unless poverty and unsterile genital mutilation is your thing.

www.feministcurrent.com/2020/03/24/podcast-indian-filmmaker-vaishnavi-sundar-made-a-film-about-sexual-harassment-then-got-cancelled-by-liberal-feminists/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+FeministCurrent+%28Feminist+Current%29

Dance — indeed. It underlines how a non gender conforming male is cast out and punished. Query if non gender conforming females are even able to get to the stage of being able to express their feelings about the matter given the violence they face.

@SnickettyLemon

The narrow minded people who won't accept other's views.

There are indeed posters like this who come on MN and declare others as meanies for not following gender ideology or refusing to chant TWAW.

SnikkertyLemon how do you suppose we should reach out to these people who refuse to accept science, who condemn JKR without even reading her essay, who put their fingers in their ears and shout ‘it never happens’ when quite clearly it does as shown by numerous court convictions? People who are so narrow minded that their only answer is to shout ‘no debate’?

@Aesopfable

(The picture is of the fine new cloth being woven for the emperor’s new clothes)

YY at this thread being more informative than the BBC clip.

Snicketty - you appear to be narrow-mindedly refusing to accept our views.

If you believe that cultural gender stereotypes of how people should behave in relation to femininity and masculinity should be how we divide our society I accept that you have that view.

My view is that it is sexist claptrap, are you going to extend the courtesy of accepting my opinion?

So because a Brazilian chap likes cooking, that makes him a different “gender”? Has anyone told Jamie Oliver?!

Maybe Chef is another protected gender..

@DickKerrLadies
I have been patiently waiting for the 'You hypocrite, you yourself are narrow minded' retort. I just wondered how people would react to their views being challenged, while having no issue with challenging other people's views. I thought we were supposed to have a healthy debate on Mumsnet! Why do people start a thread if they do not welcome opposing opinions?

I thought we were supposed to have a healthy debate on Mumsnet! Well debate something then! Don't just do the "wooo you hypocrites" stuff!

Why do people start a thread if they do not welcome opposing opinions? What is your opinion? Why was it refreshing, in your opinion?

@SnickettyLemon

The narrow minded people who won't accept other's views.

Pot, kettle.

I am noticing a strange similarity in the posts by users with 'lemon' in their username. Odd.

[quote SnickettyLemon]@DickKerrLadies
I have been patiently waiting for the 'You hypocrite, you yourself are narrow minded' retort. I just wondered how people would react to their views being challenged, while having no issue with challenging other people's views. I thought we were supposed to have a healthy debate on Mumsnet! Why do people start a thread if they do not welcome opposing opinions?[/quote]
You thought the video was good. I offered my opposing opinion that I thought it was sexist claptrap.

Have you other opinions on the video? I'd be interested to hear them.

@StrangeLookingParasite I honestly hasn't noticed another 'lemon' ,(I tend to read the comments , not the username) are you suggesting our names fit our views?😀😀

SnikkertyLemon why do you think gender is not simply sexism? Why do you think strictly identified ‘third gender’ options in society is a better idea getting rid of gendered expectations so that men can cook and weave or women can take leadership positions and not be burdened with care commitments?

I am interesting in your argument on this.

*interested

So, Snicketty, what are your considered toughts on sworn virgins in Albania (recent past) or Bacha Posh in Afghanistan (still happening)?

Brave examples of other cultures being more open, accepting and forward thinking than us?

Honestly, I really would be interested in hearing an argument as to why this video doesn't demonstrate exactly the sort of things we're told transgenderism isn't because I just don't see it.

And TBH, I find it a little odd that someone would call it 'refreshing' - as I don't feel strict gender roles are refreshing at all. I find them stifling. Being 'allowed' to switch into the other box as long as you denounce your manhood/womanhood isn't a progressive solution, IMO.