Sex sex you mean sex Not gender

[Kit19]

Sex not gender fgs you’re a university

Not sure what you're getting at BlackKite.

Gender - masculine/feminine - can apply to objects as well as people, not necessarily anything to do with sex. A woman might dress in a 'masculine' style for example. Also a linguistic term. A table is feminine in French.

Sex - male/female. People, animals, plants.

Not sure what you're getting at BlackKite.

My point is that I do see value in the word 'gender' as it is used in academia or development to describe how the relationships between the sexes are structured and the roles that different sexes play. As I'm sure you agree, here is nothing inherent in the biological sex of women which says women should spend hours every day collecting firewood or water. In this context, I see value in the word 'gender'.

Chen is just a suffix meaning little that makes all nouns it is added to neuter.

@tadjennyp

Chen is just a suffix meaning little that makes all nouns it is added to neuter.

I know that. I was just explaining what I meant by gender not always being the same as sex in gendered nouns in other languages. That was the first example that came to mind. It's still a neuter noun. A girl is still female. The etymology is irrelevant.

@BlackKite

Not sure what you're getting at BlackKite.

My point is that I do see value in the word 'gender' as it is used in academia or development to describe how the relationships between the sexes are structured and the roles that different sexes play. As I'm sure you agree, here is nothing inherent in the biological sex of women which says women should spend hours every day collecting firewood or water. In this context, I see value in the word 'gender'.

In this context, do you see any difference between the word 'gender' and the phrase 'sex role'?

In this context, do you see any difference between the word 'gender' and the phrase 'sex role'?

No, although I suppose gender for me hints at something deeper, addressing the roles, relations and power structures, which might also be described as a sex class.

My point is I personally don't see a problem with the word gender in this context, and I wouldn't jettison it because of its etymological link with 'gender identity'.

Sorry havent read the thread.

Has anyone contacted the funders directly on this issue? ie the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. If i was funding research I would be very precise as to what I was looking at. (not outcomes, but scope, definitions etc). I am a data manager and imprecision will kill data research. Particularly in the medical field at the moment.

That response makes no sense at all.
One way of looking at gender which shows how separate it is from sex is to look at how gender is applied to objects. For example a pushbike. A child's bike. A neutral toy. But if you paint it blue, or pink, it becomes 'gendered'. The bike does not have a sex, but it has become applicable to a gender through adhering to a societal construct - pink for girls/blue for boys.
I think it has been a lazy/prurient shortcut to substitute gender for sex.

@BlackKite

In this context, do you see any difference between the word 'gender' and the phrase 'sex role'?

No, although I suppose gender for me hints at something deeper, addressing the roles, relations and power structures, which might also be described as a sex class.

My point is I personally don't see a problem with the word gender in this context, and I wouldn't jettison it because of its etymological link with 'gender identity'.

But why not use the term 'sex class' if that's what you mean?

'Gender' has changed in meaning in recent years. Using gender instead of sex in this context might not have been a problem 20 or 30 years ago (although I always felt it was the wrong word), but now it's all about feelings or one of 700 'genders' that people can 'identify with'.

Even though you don't see a problem with it, it's too open to misinterpretation (as you can see from this thread). And there are alternative words and phrases available which are unambiguous.

I replied and asked if they had assumed the gender of all the women they were studying based on their sex class. Which is a pretty big assumption, given there are 700 genders. I also pointed out that they might want to specify what 'gender' means in their study since they seem to be using it synonymously with sex.

But why not use the term 'sex class' if that's what you mean?

Because I (and many others) mean gender.

'Gender' has changed in meaning in recent years. Using gender instead of sex in this context might not have been a problem 20 or 30 years ago (although I always felt it was the wrong word), but now it's all about feelings or one of 700 'genders' that people can 'identify with'.

I'm coming from a specific technical field, and I work in international development. When specialists in that field talk about gender and how it affects access to resources in Subsaharan Africa, I don't think anyone is thinking about 700 genders. We know perfectly well we are referring to women and gender relations, roles, etc.

I'm confused now, BlackKite.

I asked you: "In this context, do you see any difference between the word 'gender' and the phrase 'sex role'?"

You replied: No, although I suppose gender for me hints at something deeper, addressing the roles, relations and power structures, which might also be described as a sex class.

I interpreted this to mean that you thought that 'sex class' was synonymous with 'gender', having already confirmed that you thought that 'sex role' was almost synonymous, so I asked you why you didn't use that term instead of 'gender'.

You replied: Because I (and many others) mean gender.

This implies that you think gender means something distinct from either 'sex role' or 'sex class', which contradicts your earlier statement that you think they mean the same. What exactly do you think is conveyed by the word 'gender' which isn't conveyed by either 'sex role' or 'sex class'?

I'm coming from a specific technical field, and I work in international development... We know perfectly well we are referring to women and gender relations, roles, etc.

Obviously all specialist disciplines have their own specialist language which others in the field will understand. But this particular article was aimed at a general readership who will not be familiar with the specialist terms, and it should be accessible to those non-specialists, using language which is clear for them, even if it is not what is commonly used by the specialists. Particularly when a term has such a loaded meaning in popular usage.

My point is that I do see value in the word 'gender' as it is used in academia or development to describe how the relationships between the sexes are structured and the roles that different sexes play. As I'm sure you agree, here is nothing inherent in the biological sex of women which says women should spend hours every day collecting firewood or water. In this context, I see value in the word 'gender'

Gender used to mean this.

It also used to mean a system of power and a way of explaining 'gendering' - the construction of roles and of individuals.

I also still use it that way (with appropriate references and caveats to show what I mean). It was part of my second wave language 30 years ago and I'm not ceding it to the TRAs.

I am assuming the mix or gender / sex on forms is common place.

I have emailed this week to a leisure centre I wanted to join which had put Gender Male, Female, Prefer not to say.

I would like a really good response to email companies who do this, staying all the reasons why. I'm not articulate enough and I know some MN are very good at these responses.

Anyone offer up a good concise email please?

*Newwayofthinking
*
I copied the following from twitter.

"I have noticed that you have included Gender as a protected characteristic in the report attached to this email.

Under the Equality Act 2010, sex is the protected characteristic and the only two possible options for sex are 'Female' and 'Male' as defined in the Act and consistent with biology and there is no other way of defining sex class.

Gender identity' and 'gender' are not protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010 and are not defined in the Act.

Asking about a personal characteristic such as 'gender' that is not a protected characteristic under the Act, may be in breach of the GDPR by processing personal data without a lawful basis.

Language and meaning of words are important and proper use & understanding of terms is vital so that the public is aware of what rights they have and what your duties are. Any confusion or inconsistency over meaning may prevent people from accessing their rights in law.

Will you undertake to correct these errors and to review all your other policies, documents, reports, etc to ensure compliance?

Please respond."

@DialSquare

*Newwayofthinking * I copied the following from twitter.

"I have noticed that you have included Gender as a protected characteristic in the report attached to this email.

Under the Equality Act 2010, sex is the protected characteristic and the only two possible options for sex are 'Female' and 'Male' as defined in the Act and consistent with biology and there is no other way of defining sex class.

Gender identity' and 'gender' are not protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010 and are not defined in the Act.

Asking about a personal characteristic such as 'gender' that is not a protected characteristic under the Act, may be in breach of the GDPR by processing personal data without a lawful basis.

Language and meaning of words are important and proper use & understanding of terms is vital so that the public is aware of what rights they have and what your duties are. Any confusion or inconsistency over meaning may prevent people from accessing their rights in law.

Will you undertake to correct these errors and to review all your other policies, documents, reports, etc to ensure compliance?

Please respond."

Fantastic thank you

I often want to response, but sound like a bumbling idiot most of the time.

@OldCrone

I interpreted this to mean that you thought that 'sex class' was synonymous with 'gender', having already confirmed that you thought that 'sex role' was almost synonymous, so I asked you why you didn't use that term instead of 'gender'.

But this particular article was aimed at a general readership who will not be familiar with the specialist terms, and it should be accessible to those non-specialists, using language which is clear for them

Firstly, it was on an academic website, and clearly pitched at a high level. And secondly, I think it is clear what is meant. Just because TRAs have hijacked the term 'gender', I think it is clear to well educated people what is meant by 'gender'.

@OldCrone

I interpreted this to mean that you thought that 'sex class' was synonymous with 'gender', having already confirmed that you thought that 'sex role' was almost synonymous, so I asked you why you didn't use that term instead of 'gender'

I meant to add that I clearly added a caveat that for me, gender has a richer meaning than sex role. Very rarely are any two words perfectly synonymous, so for clarity, I don't think sex role is 100% synomous with gender.

I don't think sex role is 100% synomous with gender

Sex role sometimes used to be used synonymously - as in 'sex-role stereotyping', but it often meant a biological role - whether one ejaculated and rolled over snoring, or carried the foetus for nine months and so-on.

To be fair, gender I think, was nicked by feminists from Robert Stoller's work on transexuals, but we used the word differently and to mean different things and I'm not sure that the TRA definition returns it to its original.

*Newwayofthinking
*
Same here. That's why I copied something! Sometimes I copy a few things and take bits and pieces from them. But I wouldn't be able to do it from scratch as I'd forget some of the important bits!

[quote BlackKite]@OldCrone

I interpreted this to mean that you thought that 'sex class' was synonymous with 'gender', having already confirmed that you thought that 'sex role' was almost synonymous, so I asked you why you didn't use that term instead of 'gender'

I meant to add that I clearly added a caveat that for me, gender has a richer meaning than sex role. Very rarely are any two words perfectly synonymous, so for clarity, I don't think sex role is 100% synomous with gender.[/quote]
OK, I thought you meant that 'sex class' was the same as 'gender' and 'sex role' was something slightly different. Although, as you say, synonyms are rarely exact.

Firstly, it was on an academic website, and clearly pitched at a high level. And secondly, I think it is clear what is meant. Just because TRAs have hijacked the term 'gender', I think it is clear to well educated people what is meant by 'gender'.

I think this discussion illustrates that it's not clear to well-educated people what is meant. Particularly people who aren't specialists in areas which use these terms. Can you help me out here with a precise definition of what is meant by 'gender' and how it's different to 'sex class'? Or point me to a dictionary of terms.

I think this discussion illustrates that it's not clear to well-educated people what is meant. Particularly people who aren't specialists in areas which use these terms.

This makes me quite angry because it used to be clear. We have had this stolen from us too.

This makes me quite angry because it used to be clear. We have had this stolen from us too.

I don't think it has ever been clear to me.

'Gender' seems to me to refer to the sex class (the article also uses the words women and men as the groups which are being studied), but BlackKite says that it means something different, so I'm really not sure what is meant by 'gender' at all. If it's not referring to sex or sex class, what is it referring to?

I'm a scientist, so this might sound like a stupid question to people who are experts in disciplines where 'gender' is used, but I'd appreciate an explanation of what 'gender' means in this context and why it is used rather than any other term with a similar meaning.

I'm a scientist, so this might sound like a stupid question to people who are experts in disciplines where 'gender' is used, but I'd appreciate an explanation of what 'gender' means in this context and why it is used rather than any other term with a similar meaning

Well, first, I'm not sure that any discipline needs to 'justify itself' to anybody.

Second, see my post above about 'sex roles'. These used to refer to gestating and birthing, or ejaculating and snoring, and so on.

The debate used to be about how much 'sex roles' were about 'gender or nature' - for example, about biology or social conditioning. It was, and is, a given that women gestate and birth and also can choose to breastfeed. These are about 'sex roles'. However, whether we choose to stay home and be SAHM and so on is about 'gender' - this is the socially constructed element and conservatives used to argue that this was 'nature' and we used to argue this was 'nurture' (social conditioning).

Gener gave us a handy term to separate the two.

Please do bear in mind that I m referring to how I learned about feminism from my slightly older second-wave sisters when I was in my 20s in the 80s. I am talking about history, my experience, and my discipline (in which I have a Ph.D.). This was important and meaningful to us and it remains so to me.

Gender, used carefully and in particular ways, is useful to designate something that 'isn't sex' (biology) and which is about the power of men to define who women are socially.

It remains, to me, a useful term.

Now, if anyone wants to challenge that, then I suggest that they actually read the seminal texts of women's studies, which go beyond Greer and Dworkin and include Baker-Miller, Rowbotham, Oakley, Mitchell, Firestone, Eistenstein, Millett and so on.

Having said that, there was some argument in the late 80s that 'sex and gender' were the same thing in ontological terms. I suggest you Google or use your university library site to find Denise Thompson for this.