Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Fair Cop dropping hints on Twitter

931 replies

teawamutu · 24/07/2020 08:38

About something big about to happen to a red organisation beginning with 'S' that they won't like.

V unfair to vaguetweet IMO Grin - anyone else seen it?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
Freespeecher · 25/07/2020 07:47

I remember years ago the Independent asked a lot of their writers what their most hated book was. Half of them said The Bible (how edgy! Or at least it would be if you were the only one to give that answer) and most of the others said Lord of the Rings.

Can't help feeling that the first lot are missing out, if only on a whole host of begatting, smiting and trepanning (oh, and I loved Lord of the Rings too. Suppose this means I can never write for the Indy. Oh well).

highame · 25/07/2020 07:53

They'll fool us all and put it in the Woman's Own

Sexnotgender · 25/07/2020 07:58

@highame

They'll fool us all and put it in the Woman's Own
Is that still a thing? How horribly transphobic. Surely it should be menstruators own.
highame · 25/07/2020 08:01

Uterus havers weekly

TirisfalPumpkin · 25/07/2020 08:18

I can get hating the ideology behind the bible / what it has been used to justify, but making it your most hated book just looks like more dim, dogmatic edgy atheism.

(shameless place mark)

ErrolTheDragon · 25/07/2020 08:59

@TirisfalPumpkin

I can get hating the ideology behind the bible / what it has been used to justify, but making it your most hated book just looks like more dim, dogmatic edgy atheism.

(shameless place mark)

Maybe, but can you think of any other book which has been of so much use over the millennia to the oppressors of women, and homophobes?

In the specific context of feminism it's hard to think of a single book which has had a worse influence. It could be characterised as the handbook of a religion designed by and for men, starting with the story of Adam and Eve.

BaronessBollyKnickers · 25/07/2020 09:05

I'd be interested to hear suggestions from members - which of the major religions are good for women and homosexuals?

I can't think of any but I'm not an expert.

Deltoids1 · 25/07/2020 09:18

I can’t think of any religions that are good for women or homosexuals either. Religion is the patriarchy. And no amount of dress wearing in the Catholic Church will make it trans inclusive either. Grin

AnyFucker · 25/07/2020 09:21

.

Babdoc · 25/07/2020 09:27

If you read the Bible, Jesus never said anything homophobic or misogynist, He rescued a woman about to be stoned for adultery, and he chose a woman (Mary of Magdala) to be the first witness of His resurrection and take the news to the other disciples.
Most of the misogynist/homophobic stuff is Old Testament, and needs interpreting in context. It was written down centuries after the events it describes, a lot is allegorical not historical, and it was written by patriarchal primitive men trying to bend scripture to their own purposes.
In the New Testament there is evidence that Paul’s letters have two different authors. Paul encouraged churches actually run by women, and the anti female bits of his letters are in a different writing style.
All I’m saying is don’t condemn Christianity because some bastard misogynist men have tried to alter its message to suit their own oppression of women! My own church has twice had a woman as Moderator (national church leader) and has had women priests for over 50 years.

FloralBunting · 25/07/2020 09:28

Most major religions function in a very patriarchal way, even if there are pockets within that actively resist that. But let's not kid ourselves that secularism gets a free pass there. Religion's gross failings towards women etc. are all out there for all to see. It's shooting fish in a barrel.
The casual misogyny present in parts of our culture that expressly are not religious is way more pervasive, and a lot harder to push back against. Religion might have been one of the tools used to manifest it, but it's only one.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/07/2020 09:32

Indeed - but they don't all have 'a book' in the same way, and/or don't have such global influence. Maybe the Bible ties with the Koran but I've never read the latter.

So... after those, is there any other book which has more served to oppress women?

highame · 25/07/2020 09:35

Mrs Beaton 😁

nepeta · 25/07/2020 09:36

@FloralBunting

Most major religions function in a very patriarchal way, even if there are pockets within that actively resist that. But let's not kid ourselves that secularism gets a free pass there. Religion's gross failings towards women etc. are all out there for all to see. It's shooting fish in a barrel. The casual misogyny present in parts of our culture that expressly are not religious is way more pervasive, and a lot harder to push back against. Religion might have been one of the tools used to manifest it, but it's only one.
Does anyone else find that this casual misogyny seems to have recently increased? Retrogressive gender stereotypes seem to be cropping up more often, and in social media it is certainly the case that now women in at least some categories can be freely bashed in clearly sexist ways.

Or is it just that I now feel as if I am fighting a war on at least two fronts at the same time?

FloralBunting · 25/07/2020 09:54

Errol, the Quran kind of ties in with the bible in that Muhammed had clearly come into contact with Christians of some sort before the Quran came to be, because some of the Quran is bowlderized bible stories and garbled Christian theological ideas. I believe Muslims view it as the last testament, a sort of follow on to the bible. And then you've got the Mormons/LDS who have their book of Mormon as an addendum.
But yes, broadly, I would agree that religions of 'the book' have been an astounding patriarchal success story over the last few millennium. But tbh, the book itself is not quite the focal point in most of these religions that outside eyes might assess. You're probably familiar with evangelical Christianity and the bible focus there, but it's not actually such a defining feature for many of the other iterations of Christianity.

FloralBunting · 25/07/2020 09:55

nepeta I don't think you're wrong, I think it's a backlash, and I think it's definitely why there is, in tandem, a growing interest in actual feminism, too.

boatyardblues · 25/07/2020 10:24

@highame

Mrs Beaton 😁
🤣😆😂
ErrolTheDragon · 25/07/2020 10:45

Floral - I used to be pretty familiar with the evangelical strand at uni, but was raised in a non-fundie church which has had women ministers over a century and quite a few women moderators. (50 years is only 1970, BabDoc - not so very far ahead of the CofEGrin) - and conducts gay marriages. NACALT, for sure.

My posts were aimed merely at the question of 'most hated book' in the specific context of feminism... I don't much like the term 'hated', but are there any other contenders for 'books which have served the oppression of women'?

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 25/07/2020 10:49

The trouble with holy books is that they are interpreted, translated, re-interpreted and practised by human beings. Most of whom have been raised and live in cultures that use deeply ingrained patriarchal structures.

Buddhism is the only one I have passing knowledge of - but the 'canon' is a sprawling collection of literally hundreds of texts that aren't all supported by all sects/schools, so one can often find discrepancies and contradictions within the suttas/texts.

The early scriptures/canons of Buddhism describe the Buddha accepting women as potentially enlightened beings and as students, which I think was pretty progressive for his day. I think his mother and wife were accepted as arahants - sort of equivalent to saints, enlightened beings - nearly Buddhas.

On the other hand, his life story (which may well be metaphorical if not greatly exaggerated) has him dumping his wife and new baby to go off and find himself.

And today, most Buddhist sects or schools are deeply patriarchal. Nuns aren't even accepted in most of the major schools, although some are trying to change that in recent years. Some Buddhists reckon women can't achieve enlightenment at all. On the other hand, there have been mutterings that the 'next Buddha' might be female. The Dalai Lama suggested his next incarnation might be a woman (which he spoiled by then saying she'd have to be a real hottie).

As for sexuality, mostly the scriptures aren't all that fussed about it, just saying we shouldn't be too strongly identified with our sexuality, as far as I know. But again, there are some codes for monastics that forbid gay men from joining the order. Not sure if lesbians get much of a mention.

That is my shitty essay for Buddhism and Patriarchy. Please don't grade me on it.

No news on Santa's expose, yet?

BaronessBollyKnickers · 25/07/2020 10:52

That is my shitty essay for Buddhism and Patriarchy. Please don't grade me on it.

10/10 from me. (Sorry, couldn't help myself.)

Sexnotgender · 25/07/2020 10:55

I agree @Babdoc I assume you’re CoS?

I was at general assembly last year though and the other moderators weren’t exactly ticking diversity boxes😂

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 25/07/2020 11:07

Floral, Christ is a prophet within Islam, isn't he? I had the impression it went: Judaism; Christianity; Islam, each building upon the previous.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 25/07/2020 11:07

Thanks, Baroness. Grin

testing987654321 · 25/07/2020 11:12

so one can often find discrepancies and contradictions within the suttas/texts.

I have recently realised that when discussing one topic from several different angles I end up contradicting myself and then have to work through where the contradiction arose from and how to resolve it. I bet there isn't a religion or campaign in the world that doesn't contain contradictions.

Not a criticism, just made me think.

CaveMum · 25/07/2020 11:13

I thought it might be linked to this but then realised the article is a week old!

www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-is-the-police-spending-money-on-stonewall-subscriptions-