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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Survivors Must Fight For Trans Women Too" thoughts?

120 replies

Happy101 · 23/07/2020 01:31

Stumbled across this article, and was shocked to see some of the sentiments being displayed, primarily accusing domestic abuse survivors of weaponising their trauma to stop access for trans-women to their shelters. Quite a shocking read that places the protection of trans-women at the feet of already extremely vulnerable women? I've always been pro-trans, but this has just really rubbed me the wrong way for some reason and is making me question a lot of what this movement is seeking to achieve

Link: www.refinery29.com/en-gb/2020/07/9919890/transphobia-and-domestic-violence

OP posts:
Collidascope · 23/07/2020 06:40

There's so much wrong with this.

The scathing reference to the DV refuge which calls transgender males transgender males. Because what women who've been abused definitely need is to be gaslighted into thinking that people who are patently male are actually women Confused

The separate stats for "trans women" and c** women. (Oh, so when it comes to DV, we're suddenly allowed to categorise separately, are we? Strangely not when it comes to recording crimes though. Because that would demonstrate that "trans women" retain male patterns of violence.) The author states that for trans women, it's likely higher. No evidence. No acknowledgement that for actual women it may be higher too.

No acknowledgement of the death stats. 2 women a week murdered in the UK by a partner or ex partner. Male transgender people are among the least likely to be murdered in the UK.

No acknowledgement, as PPs have pointed out, of the huge amount of resources that Stonewall get which could go towards setting up services for trans people.

No acknowledgement of the fact that women who have been abused by males need services away from males - and that it's extremely easy to tell if someone is male. Voice, facial structure, height, bone structure, muscle mass, Adam's apple.

As usual, no suggestion of a third space - services that trans women could go to and be with the women who are happy to accept them as women, while the women who quite reasonably want to keep the exceptions ALLOWED FOR IN THE EQUALITY ACT (so perfectly legal) have services that are free of males.

Calling JK Rowling transphobic. I hope she fucking sues.

The suggestion that including males in women's services is "an opportunity to expand and diversify the movement and make it bigger and more full of solidarity."
Oh okay. Maybe we should just put women and men's services together full stop, right? That will expand and diversify the movement too. In fact maybe get rid of feminism and BLM and every other movement that focuses on a specific oppressed group and just have a kind of general equality movement. No? But why not? It will be bigger and have so much more solidarity! What could go wrong?

"Escaping domestic abuse is a potentially fatal experience for any of us........ Forty-nine percent of women killed by a partner or ex-partner arekilled less than a month after separation."
Ah, we're back on women now, no longer differentiating between c** and trans because trans women are one of the safest demographic when it comes to getting killed, so it's time to conflate again.

Then goes on to talk about black women and disabled women, and trans survivors. I'm not sure if that use of the word survivors is meant to suggest trans men (you know, the actual females, the ones we never talk about) might need some help too. But at any rate we're back to equating the struggles of black women and disabled women with the struggles of, er, male women.

Then she's back to saying we all have different experiences of abuse anyway. This is meant to be a justification for allowing male women into female services, but again seems more of an argument for simply lumping all male and female abuse victims together because why not?

"When we understand abuse as the gatekeeping of liberty, autonomy and self-determination, it is ironic that any survivor would position themselves as the gatekeeper of 'woman' or 'survivor'."
Oh, I'm fairly sure abuse can also be seen as gaslighting (telling someone black is white, male is female), DARVO ('you abused women are now complicit in the abuse of trans women') and a refusal to accept the word no. It isn't abusive to say that a man is a man.

"these 'feminists' are acting against the principles our liberation is founded on: autonomy, freedom and safety from violence."
Women are responsible for men's violence. Refreshing take.

"The abolition of fixed gender identities and their associated power dynamics liberates us all."
Yes. So why reify them into law?

"when this defensiveness manifests as shaming and policing trans people’s existence and liberties in the (misguided) name of our own 'safety', cis women must recognise what we are doing: hiding behind our survivorhood in order to behave abusively."
Fuck me. Did she really write that? Wanting to uphold the equalities act and preserve single-sex spaces is abusive. Saying no to men is abusive.

I can't even be bothered beyond that. It's a really nasty piece.

DryHeave · 23/07/2020 06:43

Does anyone have any insight on the motherhood/child element of these shelters? My assumption would be suffering DV and having children to take with you would add to your vulnerability. I’m going out on a limb to also assume that TW with male partners are unlikely to have children with them?

Clymene · 23/07/2020 06:43

Suzie is a man. Suzie does not belong in a women's refuge.

That whole article can be summed up by 'women, be kinder to men. If you're not centring men's needs above your own, you're a bad person.'

Enormous internalised misogyny (if that really is written by two women)

nepeta · 23/07/2020 06:46

The site allows for feedback.

Kit19 · 23/07/2020 06:52

It seems as if it really was

www.journalismfestival.com/speaker/janey-starling

www.unitedagents.co.uk/leah-cowan

doublehalo · 23/07/2020 06:54

I didn't bother to read the article.

However wrong it is is irrelevant- that fact that it's published online gives it weight and veracity. TAs are very good at controlling the narrative, with GC women spending way too much time fire fighting. This needs to change.

gettingreadytogo · 23/07/2020 07:02

Happy to support transwomen to have a safe haven. Just not the one for women.

Clymene · 23/07/2020 07:25

Oh Janey is Sisters Uncut and Level Up, groups that would prefer the word to be FeMENism rather than feminism. Explains a lot.

I note she describes herself as a domestic violence expert. I would call Karen Ingala Smith a dv expert, given she leads a dv charity. I wonder what Ms Starling's qualifications are, other than slagging off organisations that centre women in their work?

Aroundtheworldin80moves · 23/07/2020 07:35

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53498675

Calls to DV helplines significanly increased over lockdown, as did requests for accommodation.

If campaigners say that any man can declare they are female and get access to DV shelters, they do realise that abusive men can use the same legislation to enter refuges? Therefore posing a risk to both Eomen and Transwomen who are trying to escape?

Siablue · 23/07/2020 07:43

I do think that transwomen and of course transmen should have access to refuges. As should men for that matter but if someone is currently a man and have never said their female name out loud before contacting the domestic abuse service a women’s refuge is not for them. Just as it would not be for a gay man. There should be more refuge provision for the LGBT community.

When I phoned the National domestic violence helpline they told me refuge places were very limited for disabled women. Most refuges are in ordinary houses so there are a lot of access issues. Migrant women might not have a refuge place at all if they have no recourse to public funds.

There does need to be some safeguarding around refuges and you can’t just say I have never lived like a women but I feel like one can I come in. They quite rightly don’t ask for proof that you are being abused. If any man can now get a place at a woman’s refuge by saying they feel that they are a woman then it is a very different prospect and that will put many women off going. The authors of the article seem to have very little compassion for any women who would feel uncomfortable with a man in their space or insight into the safeguarding implications of it. This article has really upset me.

Winesalot · 23/07/2020 07:54

What is the nebulous UK women’s sector that they refer to? As I have only recently moved here, I don’t not understand what this means and why it was applied to the more focused women’s support services sector. That was just the first nebulous ‘fact’ used here.

There is so much wrong with this as an article that is attempting to be authoritative, that it simply leaves me questioning the validity the entire way through. I immediately discounted the statistics altogether as they are not clearly referenced in the body and seem inflated.

The entire piece avoids the obvious: that the women in shelters need safe spaces away from penises (however well intentioned those people with penises are). Women have said they will refuse accommodation that includes penises.

The answer is to have separate shelters, to listen to the women in need of them and to stop forcing the issue that women have to accept a person who has a penis as being A woman. If there is no separate facilities, that is where activism should be focused.

And let some actual research be done on the issue and not shut down because it is deemed transphobic.

Winesalot · 23/07/2020 07:54

As a side note:

This article seems to lump that rightful fear in with arachnophobia and then even minimises people’s arachnophobia with the throw away how harmless spiders are in this country. My thought was ‘Yeah... but what about a person who has a fear of spiders that developed it elsewhere. Using this as an analogy is very problematic and not very imaginative.

As a recently relocated Australian, I know which spiders are friendly there, but as I don’t know all spider species, I treat any I have not seen before with the considerable space I give the ones that I know can cause harm. and I don’t even have arachnophobia. I do have plenty of experience though in coming across the most poisonous spiders and snakes in the world.‘

It actually is not the gotcha they think.

bluebluezoo · 23/07/2020 07:56

2. I have read that statement before: That feminism should center trans women's issues. It does take my breath away in its audacity

I was pretty uncomfortable at the commandeering of BLM as well.

Saw on twitter “black trans lives matter” - what with black trans women being murdered more than black men or women, the campaign should be centred on them.

Same narrative, jumping on a marginalised group and making it about them as a subset.

Winesalot · 23/07/2020 07:59

That ‘rightful’ fear is referring to women who don’t want to share their safe spaces with someone with a penis.

SnuggyBuggy · 23/07/2020 08:00

If this issue was really about concern for trans domestic violence then the talk would be about creating shelters and resources that specialise in the issues trans victims face. It's all about validation and female erasure.

Winesalot · 23/07/2020 08:08

Yes snuggy it was all about shaming women for having boundaries, particularly at a time when they need clear boundaries to even start thinking about recovering from trauma.

Siablue · 23/07/2020 08:09

Does anyone know the address to write to to complain about this article because I will be doing so.

nepeta · 23/07/2020 08:14

Siablue

[email protected]

nancybotwinbloom · 23/07/2020 08:23

As a side note, when did all this madness start. I only read about this on Here when I started reading the feminist boards.

It seems to me it's only the last year or so it's gotten really out of hand.

I am reading Ben Elton Blind Faith and it's frightening that we are heading that way as a society. I.e I feel like I am therefore I am and anyone saying I'm not is disrespectful etc etc etc.

I still can't get my head round the fact that this is happening.

Is it the actual law now that if a man says he feels like a women he can access any of our spaces?

Stingybath · 23/07/2020 08:32

Ridiculous, and getting really sick of the made up statistics that keep getting spouted. The quote about x getting threatened with leaving their home and losing their children if they live in the gender they choose raises a good point though. Seperate spaces for transgender people would be better, that would keep women safe plus they could receive support specific to them. No woman would be in a shelter because of those circumstances, for a choice that they have made that in honesty, aside from the supposed threat of physical violence (which is always unacceptable), isn't unreasonable for the partner to not want to be a part of. I do wonder why these men hate women so much yet want to live their life as one.

Clymene · 23/07/2020 08:35

For anyone who is interested in what life is like for women who marry men who come out as trans after many years of marriage and children, the trans widows website is a bit of an eye opener: www.transwidowsvoices.org/

Siablue · 23/07/2020 08:41

Thank you.

Do Southall black sisters exclude gender non conforming women? The only time I have ever heard of this happening is ‘trans’ inclusive rape centres who don’t include trans men.

Clymene · 23/07/2020 08:44

No they don't siablue. They exclude men and transwomen (men who identify as women).

FloralBunting · 23/07/2020 08:48

I think I might have found a picture taken while the authors were researching this nasty piece of shite.

"Survivors Must Fight For Trans Women Too" thoughts?
Fanthorpe · 23/07/2020 08:59

Enraging and based on a series of logical fallacies.

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