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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Let's talk about sects baby! Psychotherapy, all the good things and the bad things that can be

104 replies

hoodathunkit · 22/07/2020 10:51

Let's talk about it!

Apologies for not posting yesterday.

I got so caught up in posting on Monday that it has left me very behind with a number of tasks and quite exhausted.

There is so much to be written about dodgy psychotherapy and its links to satanic panic hoaxes and also to real dangerous cults that it will take a very long time to sort it all out.

I am very busy today, but would like to start by providing evidence to support my claims about Bessel van der Kolk, claims that were disputed by various posters in the thread about Jacqui Dillon and MAPs.

It will take a while for me to post all the evidential links and screen shots, so please bear with me, this will take some time. I will not be able to finish this task today as there is just so much information.

I would like to initially explore Bessel van der Kolk’s many connections to neo-tantric sex cults, this will take a few posts and I am not sure whether I will have more time today so please bear with me.

Firstly let us examine the activities of Bessel's wife Betta van der Kolk aka Betta de Boer van der Kolk

here is a photo of Bessel and Betta together that I harvested from a facebook account (I think it was Bessel’s account to be honest I am not entirely sure, but the photo shows they are a couple and the text accompanying the photo on the fb page confirmed this.) The facebook account is no longer available to me, others may be able to see it? However readers will be able to see from the photo that Bessel and Betta are a couple and will also be able to identify the women in the photo, Betta, as the same woman in my links below

photo here

Now, let us examine Betta van der Kolk’s work as a “tantric” healer and educator

Here is a link to an internet radio show titled "Tantra and Sexual Healing with Bette de Boer van der Kolk “ in which the following text appears
"This interview features body psychotherapist Betta de Boer van der Kolk about Tantra as a way to heal from sexual abuse. Betta describes Tantra as an exchange of energy that brings presence, connection, safety and play into sexuality. She leads the listener in a technique for couples to harmonize their breathing in order to give to each other through their bodies. She also describes ways that a woman can receive sexual healing through Tantric massage, and men can learn to dissociate orgasm from ejaculation, in order to experience ejaculatory control.”

source:
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200722074139/safespaceradio.com/tantra/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200722074139/safespaceradio.com/tantra/

I have linked via the archive for safety and for archiving purposes. Readers interested listening to the audio can access it not using the archive using an internet cafe, library or some anonymous place if possible.

The below link is also informative and includes the following text:

"Betta de Boer-van der Kolk – a gifted expert on Tantra and Trauma who came all the way from Amsterdam to be with us. Betta and Dan demonstrated the ‘love dance’ (a completely clothed demonstration of positions for lovemaking), sharing the multitude of ways to share physical love, staying connected with body, energy and heart. It was one of the highlights of the weekend to experience!"

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200722080117/blog.sourcetantra.com/tantra-hawaii-judith-davis/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200722080117/blog.sourcetantra.com/tantra-hawaii-judith-davis/

Another link if significant interest

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20150513033724/www.meetup.com/Source-School-of-Tantra-Yoga-Boston/members/34601892/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20150513033724/www.meetup.com/Source-School-of-Tantra-Yoga-Boston/members/34601892/

as is this link via the archive
archive.is/u4bGo

Readers interested to learn the kind of activities performed by Tantra Educators from the Source School of Tantra may wish to read the following 1st person account of a yoni massage performed on a vulnerable female by a man called Sturm, a Tantra Educator from the Source School of Tantra in Maui, Hawaii

"I Got a Yoni Massage For Journalism"
The tantric healing modality is supposed to release tension through your vagina. But it was more like getting finger-banged by a stranger.

BY JESSIE SCHIEWE
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200503204854/www.okwhatever.org/topics/naughty/i-got-a-yoni-massage-weird-news" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200503204854/www.okwhatever.org/topics/naughty/i-got-a-yoni-massage-weird-news

I will post again as soon as I can

Let's talk about sects baby! Psychotherapy, all the good things and the bad things that can be
OP posts:
QuentinWinters · 22/07/2020 11:39

Bessel Van Der Kolk is not a psychotherapist.
I'm reading his book at the moment and its clear he is a very knowledgeable and experienced doctor with compassion for traumatised people and well thought through and evidenced treatment options. I don't think hes part of a cult.
Also you should be careful what you say on the internet. Libel law still applies.

hoodathunkit · 22/07/2020 14:24

Bessel van der Kolk is a “trauma specialist” with multiple connections to controversial neo-tantric organisations and psychotherapy networks (e.g. the ISSTD) that many people would describe as “cults”.

You may be correct that he does not call himself a psychotherapist, yet he has offered a service called “therapy” to patients for some years

source:
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20130428025801/besselvanderkolk.com/Patients.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20130428025801/besselvanderkolk.com/Patients.html

Here is his current bio from his website
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200627015730/www.besselvanderkolk.com/about/biography" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200627015730/www.besselvanderkolk.com/about/biography

It has no mention of any qualifications that I can see other than the letters “MD” after his name.

Maybe he has qualifications but is modest about sharing them?

As for his links to cults, Van der Kolk’s primary connections to the neo-tantric organisations (to my knowledge) are via his wife Betta’s involvement in the Source School of Tantra and his business associate Marc Gafni, a disgraced former Rabbi who also promotes his own brand of “tantra”. There are additional network connections to extremely controversial yoga schools (including “tantric” yoga schools that feature prominently in the archives and message boards of the Cult Information Centre) via Van der Kolk’s promotion of something called “Trauma Sensitive Yoga” - of which more later.

It is not really my place to say that, for example, the Source School of Tantra is or is not a cult. Certainly many people have referred to it in this way. The Source School of Tantra teaches courses in “tantra” that include teaching students “yoni” and “lingam” (genital) massage as well as “sacred spot” (G spot for women) massage.

There are many allegations on the internet that there has been a coverup of rapes and sexual assaults at the Source School of Tantra. To my knowledge the main focus for complaints of sexual impropriety is a Source School of Tantra yoga teacher named TJ Bartel. There are also allegations that the school staff covered up the complaints.

These allegations are disturbing to read for a number of reasons. Obviously it can be disturbing and distressing to read about rapes and sexual assaults. I find the accounts even more disturbing because the complainants are women who consented to various sexual acts as part of a tantric healing session but who felt violated when their boundaries were not respected and when further acts that they had not consented to took place.

The thing I find extremely disturbing is not the concept that a person can consent to some things but not others, this is well understood by any rational person; it is the fact that so many vulnerable women are buying into the idea that yoni massage is a healing / therapeutic modality, especially for healing sexual trauma.

Interested readers can read some of the (extremely disturbing) allegations via this link
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200722114057/gurumag.com/source-tantra-continues-working-with-tj-bartel-despite-sex-abuse-allegations/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200722114057/gurumag.com/source-tantra-continues-working-with-tj-bartel-despite-sex-abuse-allegations/

I cannot vouch for their accuracy but these allegations are extremely disturbing and worthy of proper investigation by the police.

Interested readers can view a video of TJ Bartel and Charles Muir (founder of the Source School of Tantra Yoga) here:

(note the use of a “yoni puppet” - puppets and puppetry abound in the networks I research - not sure why)

The below video in which the founder of the Source School of Tantra Yoga, Charles Muir, describes how “sacred spot” massage “banishes the ghosts of husband past” may also be of interest.

The poster who stated that the book The Body Keeps the Score is not a book about body psychotherapy is correct. It is not a book about body psychotherapy.

It is a book that claims that trauma that has happened in the past affects both the brain and the body long after the event has happened and that trauma can be manifested in body and in the movements of the body and in aches and pains.

Van der Kolk, like many of his SRA conspiracy promoting colleagues at the ISSTD and ESTD, believes that a "trauma informed" therapist can detect trauma manifesting in the body by observing a person’s gait as they walk. For example, he describes traumatised soldiers walking with a shuffle that indicates trauma manifesting in the body.

I have a copy of this book but due to moving home and then lockdown my books are scattered over several locations. I do not have my copy of the book to hand however if anyone doubts that Bessel van der Kolk promotes these ideas and also promotes body psychotherapy (which can take many forms of which more later) I would suggest that readers check out the various audio and video presentations available online (there are many) in which Bessel van der Kolk opines about his beliefs in this respect.

just 2 examples below

archive.org/details/436-brain-mind-and-body-in-the-healing-of-trauma-with-bessel-van-der-kolk-md?q=bessel+ven+der+kolk

archive.org/details/False_Memory_Syndrome_Foundation_Vol_15_No_01_2006_janfeb?q=bessel+ven+der+kolk

OP posts:
QuentinWinters · 22/07/2020 14:32

He's a doctor specialising in psychiatry, but felt psychiatry was too narrow as it uses drugs to treat trauma.
Like many on the other thread I've found his book very useful. He does posit that trauma affects a person physiologically as well as psychologically but backs that up with medical and psychological research. I'm not sure why you think that's cultish?

His wife is not him. Not all people who practice yoga practice tantra. Not all people who practice tantra practice tonight massage. You are making a leap from the abusive tantric practitioner to Van Der Kolk being a quack and I think it's unjustified.

It's like suggesting I might be a paedophile because my husband is catholic and his priest went to seminary with a priest who was convicted of child abuse.

I'm with you that there are some cults who prey on vulnerable people out there, but you need to watch out for conspiracy theories too.

QuentinWinters · 22/07/2020 14:32

*yoni massage

FourPlasticRings · 22/07/2020 14:34

Just here to applaud the pun. 👏

hoodathunkit · 24/07/2020 09:19

Thanks FourPlasticRings :)

His wife is not him. Not all people who practice yoga practice tantra. Not all people who practice tantra practice tonight massage. You are making a leap from the abusive tantric practitioner to Van Der Kolk being a quack and I think it's unjustified.

While his wife is not him, a poster on the Jacqui Dillon MAPs thread accused me of posting false information about Bessel van der Kolk's wife. I have never done so and, as my links demonstrate, Betta van der Kolk is a trainer for the Source School of Tantra.

I will be posting more about the Source School of Tantra Yoga and its connections to the Deer Tribe, to the Pheonix Goddess Temples (new age brothels) and to other serious criminal networks in the next few days.

It sounds like you consider yourself to be knowledgable about "tantra" and Mr Van der Kolk and I am very much looking forward to obtaining your opinion on the other material I have regarding van der Kolk's network connections to the Castlewood Treatment Centre, Richard (aka Dick) Schwartz (creator of Internal Family Systems), the sexual predator (including of at least one minor girl), and "tantra" expert Marc Gafni and, via a tangential yet significant link, the fascinating organisation StopSo.

In fact some of the more research motivated readers here may have already made the link between StopSo and Van der Kolk, if they have they are welcome to post here before I do :)

One thing that is very difficult about this is that many psychotherapists in the UK and globally consider van der Kolk to be a hero of sorts.

These therapists have recommended his books to countless traumatised therapy clients who, upon reading them, identify with Van der Kolk's experiences and feel very much understood by him. These people then go on to recommend the books to others and so it spreads like a virus, amongst many well meaning, committed therapists and survivor groups.

In order to unpack the positive transference towards ISSTD associated "trauma experts" like Van der Kolk, Valerie Sinason et al we need to examine the mechanics of how positive transference occurs, not only in the clinical therapeutic setting but via books, seminars and conferences.

This in itself is a hige piece of work and I am extremely busy at the moment just trying to stay healthy and not get sick, something that is extremelt challenging given my living circumstances.

Another problem is that I have so much data and information and this is a huge piece of work, but important.

Also now events happen almost daily and I have a huge backlog to catch up on in terms or research and reporting here.

On the subject of which I will take a little diversion, to report some new and important cultic activity that is relevant to the issue of cults and mental health malpractice.

OP posts:
queenofknives · 24/07/2020 09:25

I'm reading his book at the moment and finding it interesting and useful. It may be that he is connected to some dodgy people, but does that mean his writing shouldn't be read? I don't really follow that. What is wrong with his arguments and theories, as opposed to him personally? Could you explain why his ideas are wrong?

hoodathunkit · 24/07/2020 09:29

On the Jacqui Dillon and MAPs thread several posters accused me of posting wild speculation and conspiracy theories.

Given that they were inviting readers to give credence to Jacqui Dillon, a vulnerable adult who hears voices and experienced visual hallucinations and who claims to be a survivor of organised ritual abuse and MK Ultra mind control, i fould their posts about me to be somewhat ironic.

For the education of readers who are interested in the links between cults and psychotherapy I have added some links (EXTREMELY DISTURBING) regarding recent news stories from Italy regarding a human trafficking cult that enslaved women and girls and subjected them to sexual torture.

The group based itself on ancient mystery cults (this is a recurring them in the networks I research) and consisted of a male perpetrator at the top of the network who used a pyramidal structure of compliant females to recruit new victims to his cult.

The cult has elements of MLM, theatre (including sacred theatre), erotic dance and sexual ceremonies that the cult claimed "removed blockages". Many of the cult recruiters are mental health professionals.

Apologies for the post and run I will post more as soon as I can.

Sex cult' led by a 77-year-old man known only as The Doctor who 'tortured and sexually abused female slaves including young girls for 30 years' is uncovered in Italy
Police uncovered an alleged sex cult in the town of Novara, 30 miles from Milan
Officers say cult existed for 30 years and was run by a man called The Doctor
They say 77-year-old preyed on vulnerable women and turned them into slaves
Followers - known as 'beasts' - were 'brainwashed' and subjected to 'unbearable violence and abuse of all kinds', police said
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8541479/Sex-cult-led-77-year-old-man-known-Doctor-uncovered-Italy.html

Novara, psycho-sect discovery: 26 suspects, sexual violence and slave-followers, minors among the victims
ITALY
Monday 20 July 2020

The accusation hypotheses are criminal associations aimed at reducing slavery and committing numerous serious crimes in the sexual sphere , even to the detriment of minors. A very powerful ' psychosetta', based in Novara , was discovered at the end of a complex investigation by the Novara Police Headquarters, which carried out numerous searches in the night in collaboration with the Central Operational Service as well as in Novara also in Milan, Genoa and Pavia.

At the head of the sect, whose followers were predominantly female, there was a 77-year-old man. The Dionysus operation is the latest act of an investigation started two years ago and coordinated by the Turin Public Prosecutor's Office - District Anti-Mafia Directorate.
26 people are investigated. The 77-year-old leader is accused of having subjugated young and very young women, even minors, for over thirty years. The 'psychosetta' had a pyramidal organization; some women operated under the man. The Central Operational Service (SCO) collaborated with the specialized team on sects to investigate the Mobile Squad of Novara. The victims, the 'chosen ones, were subdued with a long psychological work.
A VICTIM'S STORY
«He decides everything, who you can attend, where you can work. He chooses which girls should entertain him, if you can or cannot go to our fairy places. He is He. We call him He or the doctor, because we cannot name his name, we are not allowed », says one of the victims of the psychosetta
"He", now 77 years old, called "the doctor" was venerated by his followers as a sort of God that everyone had to obey obediently, under penalty of isolation from the sectarian group. The leaders of the sect of the "beasts" (as they called each other), in order to achieve their goals, was helped by some of his close collaborators, real torturers. The criminal group, thanks to a psychological center and a dense network of commercial activities, all attributable to the sect - such as two dance schools or a school of 'Celtic Sword', several herbalists, a craft shop, and even a publishing house - he was able to recruit the unsuspecting victims to be unknowingly introduced into sectarian dynamics.
The 'chosen' girls, including teenagers or even girls as in the complainant's case, were introduced to the sect's philosophy and started 'magical practices, including, above all, sexual practices, often extreme and painful, real torture, which they served, in the logic imparted by the leader, to annul the 'thinking self, to light the interior fire and enter a magical, fantastic and secret world. The sect thus ended up absorbing every aspect of the life of the adepts, both as regards their personal and family environment, and even their formation. In practice, as happened for the victims so far ascertained, or the members of the family were incorporated into the sect and induced to submit to the will of the 'Doctor,or the adepts were forced to cut any kind of relationship with them. It was' Luì who decided the direction of studies, the training courses or the work that the girls had to carry out, almost always in the commercial activities related to the organization with the aim of binding them inextricably to the sectarian group. All this determined a real isolation from the outside world which deprived the followers of any point of reference, making them totally dependent on the sect which, although harmful, constituted at that point the only economic and moral support.organization with the aim of binding them inextricably to the sectarian group. All this determined a real isolation from the outside world which deprived the followers of any point of reference, making them totally dependent on the sect which, although harmful, constituted at that point the only economic and moral support.organization with the aim of binding them inextricably to the sectarian group. All this determined a real isolation from the outside world which deprived the followers of any point of reference, making them totally dependent on the sect which, although harmful, constituted at that point the only economic and moral support.
From the complainant's story it emerged that the sect had originated in the mid-80s from the merger of two parallel groups, whose main office is located in the province of Novara, the place where the Doctor is habitually residing and from where he managed capillary, every movement of the adepts. In the approximately 30 years of the sect's activity, a number of people who have not yet fully quantified, but certainly a high number, have participated in various capacities and with various roles. Further investigations were also carried out on the economic aspects, both as regards the commercial activities related to the organization, and as regards the payments of money to which the members were required, which were particularly exorbitant in the case of comfortable economic conditions.
No one could consider himself immune from the danger of being introduced into the organization; even girls with a very high cultural level and apparently free from external influences risked being annexed to the sect if identified as prey. This is because the organization used professional psychologists, in turn adepts, who, leveraging on a state of emotional fragility of the girls, even if only momentary, undertook the work of indoctrination and inclusion, according to a precise and detailed "scheme »: The neophytes were filled with attentions, attentions and subjected to a real brainwashing which led them to open up more and more to the practices of the organization, up to accepting uncritically unbearable violence and abuses of all kinds.Everything went on until one of the victims was able to overcome, in part, the traumas resulting from the group's attendance, breaking the wall of silence that enveloped this impenetrable underwater world.
The numerous searches and seizures were carried out in the early hours of yesterday by the Novara Mobile Squad and by the Central Operational Service with the participation of the staff of the Mobile Teams of Turin, Milan, Genoa, Pavia, Alessandria, Asti, Biella, Vercelli, Verbania and Aosta, as well as crews from the Crime Prevention Departments of Milan and Turin.
Last updated: 14:54
© RESERVED REPRODUCTION

translate.google.com/translate?sl=it&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ilmessaggero.it%2Fitalia%2Fnovara_setta_sessuale_schiavi_minorenni_ultime_notizie_oggi_20_luglio_2020-5357025.html

Novara, dismantled psycho-sect: sexual abuse of minors

Dozens of searches against alleged members of a "psychosetta" by the police of Novara in the Piedmont province and in those of Milan, Genoa and Pavia. The investigation is coordinated by the Turin prosecutor. According to the investigations, which lasted two years, the adepts, mainly women, but led by a man, now 77 years old, would have been responsible for the crime of association for crimes aimed at the reduction into slavery and the commission of numerous and serious crimes in the sexual field , even to the detriment of minors.

<a class="break-all" href="https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&pto=aue&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=it&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=www.ilmessaggero.it/video/cronaca/novara_setta_abusi_sessuali_su_minori-5357101.html&usg=ALkJrhgYdv2h95Vt2JgUh65KxTgyJRkc5g" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&pto=aue&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=it&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=www.ilmessaggero.it/video/cronaca/novara_setta_abusi_sessuali_su_minori-5357101.html&usg=ALkJrhgYdv2h95Vt2JgUh65KxTgyJRkc5g

OP posts:
hoodathunkit · 24/07/2020 09:31

I'm reading his book at the moment and finding it interesting and useful. It may be that he is connected to some dodgy people, but does that mean his writing shouldn't be read? I don't really follow that. What is wrong with his arguments and theories, as opposed to him personally? Could you explain why his ideas are wrong?

I absolutely can do that, I just need a litte time as I have to exercise and navigate some real life challenges.

OP posts:
MrsWooster · 24/07/2020 09:37

I’m seeing some considerable degrees of separation here: Bessel vdK is an MD (so Dr, not Mr?) is married to Betta vdK. Betta is involved in tantric therapy. Some OTHER people involved in tantric therapy have allegedly been using the tantric therapy set up to abuse clients.
Now tantric stuff isn’t my therapy cup of tea, or any other form of beverage but for a lot of people, it is their ‘thing’. This doesn’t, of course, excuse any abuse by practitioners but I’m not seeing how you draw tantric=abuse=Betta is abuser= Bessel is charlatan at best, abuser at worst.
Abusers need to be identified, stopped and punished. This doesn’t mean a scorched earth policy around everything and everybody with whom they are connected.

queenofknives · 24/07/2020 09:47

This is what I'm seeing too, MrsWooster. I'm not seeing the connection between all this stuff and Bessel's writing being in some way cultish or harmful.

hoodathunkit · 24/07/2020 09:48

I’m seeing some considerable degrees of separation here: Bessel vdK is an MD (so Dr, not Mr?) is married to Betta vdK. Betta is involved in tantric therapy. Some OTHER people involved in tantric therapy have allegedly been using the tantric therapy set up to abuse clients.

This is fascinating.

I suggest that we excercise due dilligence about claims of being a survivor of organised ritual abuse and MK Ultra mind control by Jacqui Dillon and I am accused of being a rape denialist.

The Source School of Tantra Yoga is at the centre of multiple alegations of rapes, cover ups and sexual assaults and we have to point out that they are "alleged" (actually I have no problem with any accusation of rape or sexual assault being "alleged") but there seems to be a bit of a double standard here.

Betta is involved in tantric therapy. Some OTHER people involved in tantric therapy have allegedly been using the tantric therapy set up to abuse clients.

no, not at all

Betta is a trainer for the Source School of Tantra, she is a long term associate at a highly controversial organisation that has an appalling reputation even amongst the new age flakes and hippies who believe that yoni massage will remove the ghosts of past husbands and the invisible psychic parasites that haunt vaginas following sexual abuse.

ans, as I have stated repeatedly here, I am only just getting started.

just quickly (and I have plently more links to share - just no time)

Bessel van der Kolk, Scientific Dishonesty & the Mysterious Disappearing Coauthor
archive.org/details/BesselVanDerKolkScientificDishonestyTheMysteriousDisappearing?q=bessel+ven+der+kolk

OP posts:
Kantastic · 24/07/2020 09:51

This is just a six degrees of separation game. I bet we'll find that Kevin Bacon is the secret architect of all of it.

Sorry to be snarky - if I can be constructive instead, you need to learn to filter your information and to distinguish a genuinely significant connection such as a business relationship or a mentor-mentee relationship from a non-significant relationship such as "leading expert cited on dodgy person's website." Your information would be a lot more valuable if it was better filtered. Plus you are throwing everything that is even vaguely connected, even conceptually connected, with groups that are abusive, into the same basket. You really will end up throwing literally everything into the box.

Not all psychotherapy, not all bodywork, not even all tantra, is an abusive cult. Though it's certainly true that many therapists and MANY tantra practitioners are on some kind of power trip. Ultimately, wherever there's a power imbalance such as in psychotherapy, and even more so wherever there's a power imbalance and a total absence of regulation or professional standards, such as with tantra practitioners or ayahuasca shamans or whatever, there are going to be abusers.

The solution is to keep your wits about you, especially if dipping your toe into unregulated murky waters- it's not to decide that all of psychotherapy is part of a vast interconnected network of abusive cults.

And to be clear I am not denying that these abusive cults exist. They most certainly do. You're just catching far too much stuff in your net.

Also - I have to add that it's not great, that you are discrediting an abuse victim on the grounds that she has mental health issues. This is exactly what abusers do.

okay. said my piece and I'm done now.

hoodathunkit · 24/07/2020 09:53

I highly recommend this article which is nuanced and informative

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20140525011608/www.nytimes.com/2014/05/25/magazine/a-revolutionary-approach-to-treating-ptsd.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20140525011608/www.nytimes.com/2014/05/25/magazine/a-revolutionary-approach-to-treating-ptsd.html

OP posts:
Kantastic · 24/07/2020 09:57

Interesting article, really highlights how much times and thinking have changed even since 2014.

“Unfortunately, most psychiatrists pay no attention whatsoever to sensate experiences. They simply do not agree that it matters.”

I do not think this is true any more, certainly not as the older generation of psychiatrists age out.

QuentinWinters · 24/07/2020 10:03

It sounds like you consider yourself to be knowledgable about "tantra"
Not at all. I'm very knowledgeable about how to analyse lots of data to identify underlying patterns and trends, so I can spot bad analysis and that's what you have done.

I agree with Kantastic basically. Look at big enough amounts of data for long enough and you can superficially "prove" anything. That's why we have conspiracy theories.

hoodathunkit · 24/07/2020 10:07

Also - I have to add that it's not great, that you are discrediting an abuse victim on the grounds that she has mental health issues. This is exactly what abusers do.

You see the fascinating and highly ironic thing about this comment is that we have a strange dichotomy here.

Jacqui Dillon, a vulnerable adult with serious and ongoing mental health problems, appears at conferences run by ISSTD associated therapists where she claims to be a survivor of organised ritual abused and MK Ultra mind control and I am "discrediting" her, rather than expressing concern that she may be being exploited by quacks.

Dillon's situation bears many similarities to that of Carol Felstead aka Carol Myers

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1363271-The-extraordinary-abuse-of-Carole-Myers-Carol-Felstead

I am a survivor of trafficking and torture and I have never hidden the fact that I have experienced mental health problems (in fact I still struggle). When I attmpt to whistleblow about mental health professionals involved in sexually abusive cults to my then local NHS mental health trust, to my then GP, to others within the trust I am the one who is given a diagnosis of delusional disorder - even though I can back up my claims with evidence.

The clinicians primarily responsible for my concerns being dismissed were mental health professionals (shockingly working in the NHS) with proven association to the ISSTD.

You have to ask who is gaslighting who?

OP posts:
queenofknives · 24/07/2020 10:09

That's an interesting article - I didn't get any sense of VdK being a cultist or dangerous in any way though. He seems interesting and seems quite committed to helping people through trauma. Not really seeing the problem here, unless I missed something.

hoodathunkit · 24/07/2020 10:10

can spot bad analysis and that's what you have done.

How can you spot the bad analysis when I have only posted a tiny proportion of the data I have?

Surely the more appropriate way of analysing data is to wait until you actually have all the data?

I am norw running very late so that's it from me for now.

I have a lot more to post

OP posts:
Kantastic · 24/07/2020 10:14

You're the only person to mention gaslighting, fyi.

queenofknives · 24/07/2020 10:17

Abusive cults definitely exist but there's nothing in what you've said or posted that suggests VdK's work is part of an abusive cult or indeed has anything wrong with it other than being considered experimental by some of his colleagues.

Honestly I think this is a bit much, really. As you have all this information, would it not be more helpful to expose actually abusive practices rather than to do this scattershot thing of saying 'here's some dodgy people, here's some other dodgy people' and then acting as though you've given some kind of analysis or argument about someone else entirely?

hoodathunkit · 24/07/2020 10:21

last post for a bit

This complain about van der Kolk by a former patient resonates with many of the problems with boundaries and professional misconduct that I have experienced personally with ISSTD associated mental health professionals

cdn.muckrock.com/foia_files/2018/04/04/PRR_4.3.18_-Anderson-_Bessel_van_der_Kolk.pdf

apologies for the PDF link I cannot get it to archive

OP posts:
QuentinWinters · 24/07/2020 10:24

You will never have "all the data" Grin
You are missing a step of collating the data into different buckets. Instead you are mixing it all together, so your analysis becomes opinion based rather than fact based.
Hence why you conflate Bessel van der Kolk with tantric sex abuse. If you split it all into different buckets you'd be able to describe each bucket and the links between them more accurately and objectively.

From what you've posted, Bessel VDK can be linked to the sex abuser because his wife and the sex abuser both worked at the same yoga venue?
From that you can say there is evidence they may know each other.
You cant say there is evidence Bessel VDK is part of a cult. That information just isnt there. It's your opinion, and your right to hold that opinion, but unevidenced opinions can be libellous so you need to be careful voicing it.

My opinion, is it's a very unfortunate coincidence but not telling. Sexually abusive men are everywhere, exploiting opportunities to abuse whenever they get the chance. The fact they can do that is down to the patriarchy, not a network of cults.

Anywhere that focusses on bodies will provide an opportunity for abusive men. That doesnt mean all men linked to those places are abusive.

queenofknives · 24/07/2020 10:43

VdK's response to the complaint is pretty convincing and the complaint wasn't upheld. If his work/practices were so abusive, I would expect this to come to light beyond this one complaint. I feel like you're clutching at straws to make an argument that really doesn't hold up, at least based on what you've offered here.

Fffffs · 24/07/2020 15:29

Op- I replied on the other thread, I really recommend you read betrayal trauma theory. (In fact I recommend all people read it as Jennifer Freyd is incredible). But imho having delt with the rabbit hole of trauma therapy and the online survivors communities it helps detangle it all and find facts if you start with the proven science. You seems to be saying don’t necessarily believe one survivor because she hears voices (not uncommon experience for survivors) and because she says she was a victim of satanic ritual abuse cults and saying she recommends this books by people who are somehow connected to accusations about cults and abuse. Your line of thought seems to read ‘don’t believe this person because CULTS, but believe me about these others because of CULTS’. Which just doesn’t make any sense from the outside pov.