Rugby reject koolaid, listen to science

[niceberg]

Thank goodness.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jul/19/transwomen-face-potential-womens-rugby-ban-over-safety-concerns?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

This is the workshop on which the decision was based.

playerwelfare.worldrugby.org/?subsection=84

The majority of elite women players surveyed said that transwomen should not be allowed to play at that level. A substantial number said they wanted more information - presumably once they see the report the "Nos" will increase. That ought to really settle it because shouldn't it be women's decision?

As always a bit of peer reviewed science e goes a looong way!

Why are there two threads on this subject? It's annoying

@Kit19

i have sent the story to DH who is dealing with this in another sport where a womens team want to play a TW and the umpires are not at all happy that its safe

You might want to look up Emma Hilton's pre-print of her review paper www.preprints.org/manuscript/202005.0226/v1

"Umpire" makes me think cricket or hockey - if hockey, your DH will probably be interested in this bit:
"Performance differences larger than 20%are generally present when considering sports that include extensive upper body contributions. The gap between fastest recorded tennis serve is 20%, while the gaps between fastest recorded baseball pitches and field hockey drag flicks exceed 50%."

Thanks Dianas :) I’ll not say which sport cos it could be outing but that paper will be very useful!

Was pleasantly surprised that radio 4 6pm news actually pointed out to listeners that the person from Loughborough they put up to counter the report was a Transwomen.

Was pleasantly surprised that radio 4 6pm news actually pointed out to listeners that the person from Loughborough they put up to counter the report was a Transwomen.

I haven't read the whole thread but has anybody mentioned the terrible headline (trans women face potential ban...) -- which still manages to centre trans, as if they have been hard done by, instead of women. They could have said something along the lines of "female rugby players at risk from trans players", for instance.

^ Ah yes. Of course. Kittens: Gotta love the Guardian trying to spin this as a terrible threat to transwomen rather than the attempt to protect women's safety that it is.

I hope that this is the beginning of the house of cards falling in the whole transwomen in women's sport arena.
EVERYONE knows it's not fair. If they say it is they are lying.

Hopefully no more women will be ‘folded like deckchairs‘ to validate other people.
If women’s sports can be reclaimed as women-only (..and not just on relative safety risk grounds but also based on female preference..) then there’s hope for everything else.

@ChattyLion

Hopefully no more women will be ‘folded like deckchairs‘ to validate other people. If women’s sports can be reclaimed as women-only (..and not just on relative safety risk grounds but also based on female preference..) then there’s hope for everything else.

I hope, I really hope, but I will never be happy until the real push back has happened and we're in a safe place. It's all the 'in the future maybe we'll change our views' The 'it's all very complicated. No I don't want that, I want real protections for women and girls and I don't want them in years, I want them now

Hopefully no more women will be ‘folded like deckchairs‘ to validate other people.

Considering that it's actually considered acceptable for McKinnon to say, on air, that lesbians should learn to cope with straight sex as some kind of social duty and die in grease fire threats for those less than dutifully enthused, I'm pretty sure this lobby will feel that it's the social duty of women to turn out and submit to being deckchair folded too.

As Highame says, the issue is the utter lack of respect for women, and the conviction that they exist merely as subhuman props in the lives of the real people. If that bit was fixed, everything else would follow.

Great news!

What happens to transwomen who were on puberty blockers from a young age, so no male puberty. Is that treated differently? Anyone know anything about that?

I'm really struggling to imagine a trans woman who hadn't been through male puberty pushing to compete in women's rugby. If that situation did happen it would probably be so rare it could be dealt with case by case.

I'm really struggling to imagine a trans woman who hadn't been through male puberty pushing to compete in women's rugby.?

Why?

My kids both play rugby. A lot of girls who play rugby arent "butch" or even particularly big. The teenagers who play are a kix of big, petite etc. Girla arent put off playing the sport just because they are big butch girls. I see no reason why a transgirl/woman on puberty blockers would be against playing just because they are petite. Regardless of your feelings on transwomen, you cant exactly say that only big, powerful biological girls are intereated in rugby, so only butch transwomen would be interested. The logic doesn't track.

Any sizes girl might want a shot at playing rugby.

Been catching up but not read all.

It is shocking that it is a new and exciting thing to discover that men (even if had hormone therapy etc) are still generally bigger and stronger than women?

I mean ask anyone and they know this is true.

A massive bloke does not lose height strength mass etc through a few hormones.

If it worked like that why aren't women who take hormones growing super tall etc

Women from East Germany in the 80s were fed hormones. They were stronger and thrashed the other women but doubt they would have beaten the men!

Personal thing. DH for a few years has had low testosterone. Like off the scale low. He could compete in the Olympics according to their rules no probs.

He used to play rugby. 6'1. Built like a brick shithouse. Enormously strong. Sex drive still intact.

My personal experience of a man with low testosterone is that he is the same as he always was.

He's on testosterone injections and it makes no difference to his build or strength. His mood perks up a bit.

This is what bothers me. A man is a man and a woman is a woman. We are told that not much testosterone = not a man? My massive built husband would not appreciate that.

How have men been let into all women's sports etc on such flimsy, nothing?

Elderly men have less testosterone? Are they less than men?

It's infuriating.

1. How has it come to women having to prove that women and girls are on average shorter and less good at the sort of sports that people play (made by men for men since whenever) rather than the other way round?

1. The idea put about by some is that women are held back by themselves and if they tried harder they would be able to compete with men. This has massive repurcussions. In terms of violence by men on women. Why didn't you fight him off?

1. There isn't much research in this area because it's really fucking obvious that men and women are different physically. Strength, size etc. The research has all been into behaviour and brains to show that female = interior.

Why the fuck were men allowed to do all this stuff across the board that was for women and it's up to women to PROVE that they should get the fuck out.

My worry is a compromise where we get contact sports, weight lifting, prisons. And the rest is gone.

I really bloody hope other sports follow suit and perhaps even the ioc? Dare we hope? Why did the Conversation centre around testosterone in the first place as if it was some overall marker of maleness vs femaleness? I'm glad it didn't centre on that. But just think of all the time wasted to prove transwomen were too strong to compete in rugby, when we knew this all along and it should have been up to tras to prove that there was no advantage to include them in the first place? Are they going to have to go through the same process for every sport?

Insurance & Law ? does anyone out there know enough about this subject to answer this one.

If information like this is out in the public domain and a transwoman is then allowed to play a sport and something goes wrong because of that transwomans strength. Could there be a potential claim? After all, couldn't claim there was no evidence about the imbalance

This is such a good result.

(Usually a lurker. My adult DD plays a team sport to national level. If transwomen Are allowed to play in the women’s squad and start to do so, she simply won’t be selected. So it won’t be a matter, as someone said up thread, of her refusing to play as a stand. She won’t be there to start with.)

Good news. The analysis that went into this decision was impressive - I recall reading the accounts of the conference and some of the papers that were presented.

Nevertheless I find it truly shocking that scientific evidence was required for something everybody instinctively knows, even those without education.
My son had been bigger and (physically) stronger than me since he was 14. We KNOW this. Why are we so stupid as a society that we have to have consultants tell us what we know?

I am equally conflicted. Delighted to hear that England rugby is taking such a reasoned and informed stance, but mind-boggled and depressed that it should even have got to the stage where experts have to prove that men have physical advantages over women.

@InTheWings

Real champions want stronger competition

Er.... so why doesn’t McKinnon compete against men?

Logic is the first casualty of gender war.

Shhh, don’t apply logic, it’s transphobic.

I'm not sure if my 'female brain' can handle logic anyway, isn't that a thing for boys?

@Winesalot

Yes ihaventgottimeforthis touch rugby should be played much more. I remember in Sydney teams would meet up on a weekday lunch and play lunch time corporate fixtures.

I played in a mixed sex touch league about 10 years ago, great fun!