Rugby reject koolaid, listen to science

[niceberg]

Thank goodness.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jul/19/transwomen-face-potential-womens-rugby-ban-over-safety-concerns?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

My son is 12, and even though I have spent the last few years lifting weights, he is now stronger than me thanks to his burgeoning testosterone! Everyone knows men are stronger, why did we have to prove it to be safe?

I'm not sure if my 'female brain' can handle logic anyway, isn't that a thing for boys?

You can stick to history, DickKerrLadies. Your name is a reminder of how the FA had no trouble deciding women weren't physically able to play football with and needed protecting from themselves.

As a student, I played Mixed Sex Hockey. Apparently, a lot of the single sex players found our particular league terrifying to watch. But on the pitch, you could definitely tell the male players were holding themselves back near the female players- but the female players would launch themselves at the male players. Apparently we were quite vicious.

However- everyone playing consented to playing a mixed sex contact sport. We had seperate changing rooms (often meant the female players from both teams changed together, and the male players instead of 'team' changing rooms. And there were minor injuries, like cuts, grazes and bruises. However Hockey is nowhere near as dangerous as Rugby. Plus there was a limit of how many female and male players there could be on the pitch at any one time.

OldCrone a trans woman pushing to compete in female rugby hasn't yet happened in the whole history of the world. Not to say it won't happen, but if it does it will be a rare event.

As much as I applaud this ruling, and it's a wedge in the door so to speak, I am concerned that they main thrust of keeping TW out of women's rugby is the (undeniable to most) safety issue. Now, most sports that want to be 'inclusive' do not have safety as a key issue. I fear this fact may weaken other sports' claims to be TW-free. We need to build upon this bedrock (safety) to start pushing strongly back in women's sports. We've all seen the outrageous (and hilarious) size differences between Hannah Mouncey and teammates. This is headline grabbing. Less so the teen track athletes in the US. How can we make this more high profile? Is it the fairness angle? How can fairness be explained/represented in the same high-profile way?

@SapphosRock

OldCrone a trans woman pushing to compete in female rugby hasn't yet happened in the whole history of the world. Not to say it won't happen, but if it does it will be a rare event.

I’m confused. Are you saying no transwomen want to play rugby? Because it’s already happened. Or have I picked you up wrongly?

As the excellent Dr Emma Hilton pointed out on Twitter to a TRA yesterday, the women’s 100m World Record holder will have hundreds of thousands, if not millions, invested in her in terms of training, coaching, nutritionists, etc. After all that, she’s still slower than the holder of the teenage boy 100m record (set at age 15).

It’s not rocket science!

Going back to the comment about whether a male who has not gone through male puberty (ie on blockers and cross sex hormones from a young age) is likely to compete, I’m going to hazard a guess that pumping a child’s body with artificial hormones and (to borrow an oft used TRA phrase) forcing their body to go through the actual wrong puberty, is going to cause all kinds of physical and mental issues that means they will be highly unlikely to ever make the grade as a competitive sportsperson. Playing recreationally is another matter.

Sexnotgender apologies I meant trans women who haven't been through male puberty. In response to OldCrone.

@SapphosRock

Sexnotgender apologies I meant trans women who haven't been through male puberty. In response to OldCrone.

That makes more sense

@ErrolTheDragon

I'm not sure if my 'female brain' can handle logic anyway, isn't that a thing for boys?

You can stick to history, DickKerrLadies. Your name is a reminder of how the FA had no trouble deciding women weren't physically able to play football with and needed protecting from themselves.

I forget my name sometimes. On here, of course, not in RL.

Indeed, the FA had no trouble figuring out what a woman was, despite being unable to know whether they had a female brain or not.

@SapphosRock

Sexnotgender apologies I meant trans women who haven't been through male puberty. In response to OldCrone.

But why do you think it's so unlikely? Is it because of the possibility that their bodies will be so irrevocably damaged by the hormone regime they have been on since childhood that they will be unable to participate in any sport at all, or some other reason?

Why should these 'transwomen' be less likely than anyone else, of either sex, to want to participate in sport?

And this is why I fucking love rugby.
No nonsense, no tip toeing around.
Hard evidence.
They are constantly changing the laws to make rugby safe.
This makes it safe for women to continue to play.
Too many head and neck injuries? Red cards for tip and spear tackles.
Women getting injured by men?
Re-visit the rules regarding sex.
I love this game.

Touch rugby is a brilliant sport - I tried to start up a club in my local area. It was very easy to get men and boys involved, as they were so used to playing sport - but I find trying to get women involved is difficult, and it is made even more difficult if there are men playing too.
Another reason we need female-only sport - to encourage and increase participation for women.
Incidentally I really strongly believe we do need more LGBT participation in sport too (yes, including trans people) as it is such a positive influence on health & well-being, and it might help to start to tackle toxic 'fan' culture too - but pushing aside women's sport isn't the way to do it.

Just heard this covered in the news on radio 1. Trans campaigners saying its “the wrong approach”

I’d love to know the right approach - I’d hazard a guess it involves women just putting up with TW playing rugby to be kiiiinndd

Also, SapphosRock, some TRAs have said that when there are more transwomen who were on puberty blockers as children, so never went through puberty, we'll no longer have the 'excuse' that they have been through male puberty as a reason to exclude them from women's sports.

OldCrone if someone is the sort of person who will block their own male puberty their priorities are very unlikely to be competing in women's rugby. I suppose it's personality type isn't it? Hence why it's never happened.

@TundraDweller

I am equally conflicted. Delighted to hear that England rugby is taking such a reasoned and informed stance, but mind-boggled and depressed that it should even have got to the stage where experts have to prove that men have physical advantages over women.

It's like when you read in a serious publication that a bunch of scientists have figured out that babies thrive best when they have a close and loving bond to an adult. Haven't mothers ALWAYS known this? Why do people only take these things seriously when a bunch of (usually male) scientists "prove" it?

@SapphosRock

OldCrone if someone is the sort of person who will block their own male puberty their priorities are very unlikely to be competing in women's rugby. I suppose it's personality type isn't it? Hence why it's never happened.

What has never happened?

OldCrone if someone is the sort of person who will block their own male puberty

worth pointing out that this "sort of person" is by definition, a child, and most of us have changed very substantially since our prepubescent days.

Still though, I agree it's unlikely that someone who's who's been through the blockers + cross-sex hormones regime will develop a strong interest in rugby - the bone brittleness alone would make it a terrible idea.

Dipping my toe in now as have been lurking on the Feminism boards for some time.

To the PP who says it doesn't happen:
https://r.search.yahoo.com/ylt=AwrJQ5u0wxZfIBAAVTN0g81Q;;_ylu=X3oDMTBydHRqMjgyBGNvbG8DaXIyBHBvcwM1BHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1595356212/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.bbc.com%2fsport%2fav%2frugby-union%2f49330380/RK=2/RS=xDNnqnyAbvohGALCXHRW1N5oa4g-

Folding women like deckchairs.. I'd argue that one is too many and I'm delighted at the stance that Rugby is taking on this as I've got an 11 year old daughter who plays.

Link fail, sorry!

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49298550

Welcome massistar

Interesting quote in that article from the founder of the club:

'He can't resist a joke, though, adding: "She's going to be a good, good player for the next few years, as long as we can stop her injuring players in training."'

Hilarious

I meant trans women who haven't been through male puberty.

At the moment there aren't very many of them, are there? I imagine most of them are in the US.

@SapphosRock

OldCrone if someone is the sort of person who will block their own male puberty their priorities are very unlikely to be competing in women's rugby. I suppose it's personality type isn't it? Hence why it's never happened.

I'm really struggling to understand your argument here.

Why do you think a male who blocks their own puberty (as a child) must have a 'personality type' which means they will never have an interest in playing any sport as an adult?

I'd suggest that the main reason 'it's never happened' to date (if that is true) is because giving children drugs to prevent them ever going through puberty is a very new phenomenon, and most of the people who have been put on this drug regime are still children or very young adults. The numbers are rising all the time, though.

twitter.com/joshgardner/status/1285540374597992449?s=19

The tweet above is Josh Gardner commenting on Squide Rugby's opinion of the situation. I understand that rugby should be inclusive, but the decision reported is mainly about safety. Which should take precedent above everything else. I am sick of being told how to think and what I should do in order to appease people. Both men think the proposal is unfair and discriminatory.

Also I have seen a lack of female players and reports commenting on this.

@DickKerrLadies that quote is awful, and really highlights the issue that World Rugby has raised.