Rugby reject koolaid, listen to science

[niceberg]

Thank goodness.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jul/19/transwomen-face-potential-womens-rugby-ban-over-safety-concerns?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

Please don't try to control women's language. Thanks.

The body has sex chromosomes the mind can't change. It's just a fact. Transwomen are not women and are not female. They are transwomen.

@MiladyRenata

The mind matters more than the body. I know that I'm female.

You’re free to think of yourself however you want, but you are not free to enforce others to see you how you want and police the language of people and impose falsehoods.

This publication has looked at the impact - literally - of postpubertal male bodies on female bodies. Biology, not feelings in someone’s mind.

well done to world rugby!!

That was a very good article thanks. I would love to see this scientific research applied across other sports. Additionally, out of interest, i would like to know the general Male advantage. Eg x% fastest,
x % stronger. These cold hard scientific facts could be used more in assault or rape trials.

Rugby has obviously taken great pains to reasonably and carefully consider all aspects and all people, including the oft- forgotten transmen. Well done rugby. Now let's see this everywhere!

The cynical part of me thinks the Guardian are printing it before the ruling is officially announced to drum up an outcry to get it changed.

Female brains reside in female bodies, because they are body parts.
Female brains do not occur in male bodies.
Transwomen do not and can not have female brains.

@Mycatismadeofstringcheese

The cynical part of me thinks the Guardian are printing it before the ruling is officially announced to drum up an outcry to get it changed.

If you click on Sean Ingle’s name and read his other articles on this subject and on Caster Semenya, they’ve always read to me as if he sees it and has to tiptoe around language in order to get something published. I think he’s an ally. He’s always writing about doping and fairness in sport.

Additionally, out of interest, i would like to know the general Male advantage. Eg x% fastest, x % stronger.

From the article:
As World Rugby’s working group notes, players who are assigned male at birth and whose puberty and development is influenced by androgens/testosterone “are stronger by 25%-50%, are 30% more powerful, 40% heavier, and about 15% faster than players who are assigned female at birth (who do not experience an androgen-influenced development).”

I applaud and welcome this decision. I played rugby at university for a very short while. Making it mixed sex is ludicrous.

Yes the assigned at birth stuff and cis reference in the report is annoying, especially as from the quotes in the article, the report refers to ‘ciswomen’ and ‘transwomen’ but then ‘men’ and ‘transgender men’. Some consistency would be nice, otherwise there is more than a faint whiff of misogyny!

I can see the view that if a transman is passed as medically fit and consents to play with men - then that’s their decision - but, what about the consent of the other 29 players on the pitch. If that transman is more physically vulnerable, and they are killed or suffer life changing injuries on the pitch, was their inclusion fair on the man/men that would have caused those injuries, and have to live with the consequences of knowing they’d done that? Open question, I’m not sure how I feel on that one.

Thanks NotBadConsidering. That’s good to know. I did think the article was well written. I’ll look out for Sean’s writing more.

Rachel McKinnon (who now goes by the hashtag sports is a human right) and who has published her own papers on why it’s completely fair... will not be happy today.

Cwenthryth I think that's a very valid point. When my brother experienced a "catastrophic" injury, he said afterwards he was glad it was in a ruck and so there was no real way of knowing who was "responsible", including himself. He didn't want anyone to feel guilty about what happened, because you would need some serious MH help to deal with seeing what you'd done to them. (Unless you are a complete psychopath of course)

@MiladyRenata

Please don't use the term "male" to describe trans women. This is not our identity. We are female.

You don’t play sport with your identity. You play it with a physical body. Which, in the case of transwomen, is a male one.

This is the same Rachel McKinnon who says the only objections come from losers...
On Sunday, McKinnon tweeted “I have yet to meet a real champion who has a problem with trans women. Real champions want stronger competition. If you win because bigotry got your competition banned… you’re a loser.”’

"...In the event of smaller female players being exposed to that risk, or of larger male players acting as opponents, the risk increases significantly, and may reach levels twice as large, at the extremes.”

My goodness, are they saying that TW are male?

Please don't use the term "male" to describe trans women. This is not our identity.

Biology isn't identity. Science trumps feelings every single time. That's the troubling thing about facts: they're true whether you like it or not.

At the risk of acting like the thread police, I just want to say let’s aim to keep the discussion on the RWU’s report, and not be drawn into someone’s merail about their identity.

The mind matters more than the body. I know that I'm female

Hmmm. I wish trans women luck willing a pregnancy into being. For those of us with female bodies who have needs for medical services and legal protections that flow from that reality, the body is what matters. Feelings of femininity are completely irrelevant.

"Current policies regulating the inclusion of transgender women in sport are based on the premise that reducing testosterone to levels found in biological females"

Am I right in saying that testosterone levels are not reduced or not required to be reduced to levels found in biological females?
I haven't the stats to hand but I seem to remember the reduced level recommended, whilst well below normal male levels was still well above normal female levels.

"From memory Owl said something once "

Couldn't give a monkey's chuff what Owl said. Owl is full of bizarre pontifications that have nothing to do with reality.

I can see the view that if a transman is passed as medically fit and consents to play with men - then that’s their decision - but, what about the consent of the other 29 players on the pitch. If that transman is more physically vulnerable, and they are killed or suffer life changing injuries on the pitch, was their inclusion fair on the man/men that would have caused those injuries, and have to live with the consequences of knowing they’d done that? Open question, I’m not sure how I feel on that one.

I think many men, understanding the difference between male and female bodies, will be reluctant to play if they know a transman is on the pitch. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out. Will they be accused of bigotry for not wanting to risk injuring someone with a female body?

Subjective feelings do not override objective reality.

Really glad to see this news. I hope other sports find a backbone soon. It should never have reached this stage where males are allowed into women's sports without solid evidence to prove it was safe and fair to do so.

Finally some common sense-its perfectly legal to seperate sports competitors based on their sex. Just as it is in prisons, & should be in hospital wards, refuges, dorms etc etc.

I'd side eye the hell out of any man willing to sign up to play very aggressive contact sports against women, quite honestly, regardless of "identity". Men are perfectly aware of how much stronger than women they are.

the mind matters more than the body I know I am female

The mind matters more than the body and I know that my female body does not shape or dictate my mind.

However I do know that my female body grants me the right to pain and abuse