Rugby reject koolaid, listen to science

[niceberg]

Thank goodness.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jul/19/transwomen-face-potential-womens-rugby-ban-over-safety-concerns?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

I just worry that for some a lack of ability to make realistic risk assessments may well be an issue.

It would be good to let Bill Beaumont know of support for this stance. He is on Twitter.

Assuming that these transmen are adults of course.

I suspect it's less because of any sudden insight into reality, and more that they worry about being sued.

An association that allows a 100kg male to tackle a 70kg female is just asking for it.

Baby and child growth curves are different for boys and girls - even pre-pubescent. The difference pre-puberty may be small, but there is a difference between the groups (whether it counts as statistically significant I’m not entirely sure).

But this at least should prompt people to do careful studies before giving the green light rather than after?

Great news.

I'm still incredulous this is even a debate in most types of sport. It's just reinventing the wheel - we've understood physiological difference since forever.

The whole potential 100-200% increase in risk factor presumably had any liability lawyers they ran the situation back advising rather strongly against the let people identify into the women's league idea.

If it becomes a situation where the risk is not clearly stated and in a way that they take on board (not magically minimize due to not being female) then yes, there should be recourse

Sadly at no point have the risks of any of it really been properly stated. Truth is they dont reay know and what they do know is immediately shut down.

And being biologically female society just won't give shit that a woman gets hurt.

So far woman have been hurt with transwomen playing against them. Women also have to put up with the risk of a female on testosterone playing against them. Of course they will he happy to fuck them over the other possible way akd thats having them smashed to bits paying on a mens team.

I'm wondering how long it will be before the "this is transphobic, phoney science" comments. Oh, and the "but wuut about the butch women that play". 🙄

(If it hasn't already started.)

@ErrolTheDragon

The actual article is admittedly less biased than the headline, to be fair.

Maybe it's because it's in the sports section of the guardian rather than elsewhere in it?

To be fair, Sean Ingle has been praised by Emma Hilton, Nic Williams & Helen Joyce for his objective reporting.

Emma Hilton has described the World Rugby approach as 'exemplary':

twitter.com/fondofbeetles/status/1284967792954015744?s=21

I also liked a tweet suggesting that Owen doesn't read the sports pages:

twitter.com/hooliganbod/status/1284976049441382407?s=21

On a more serious note, I wonder if there will be another letter like the one complaining about Suzanne Moore. Maybe not, the mighty power of 'experiencing male puberty' enables its possessors to be invisible to those waiting to pounce on anything they deem 'transphobic'.

I found the Guardian's tone to be far less combative than it usually is. Take this part: "The draft proposals are likely to be seen by women’s groups as an important new approach towards the sensitive issue of trans inclusion, one based on biological sex and the latest science rather than how someone identifies."

Oh, so now we're 'women's groups' as opposed to 'anti trans groups' or worse ' transphobic bigots'? And the part about 'latest science' seems to be a direct dig at identity shit. It's rather hard to justify 'identity' when it goes against science after all. I read this article as the Guardian thinking 'oh crap, the best evidence seems to show the pesky women were actually right all along! We'd better do some even handed reporting."

As an aside, I find it quite hilarious that there had to be a committee of scientists and experts to deduce that men have a significant advantage over women in female sports.

Actually, I think this is fair enough.

Nobody has a "human right" to play sport at a serious/professional level. People get told by doctors all the time that they can't do sport for safety reasons after all.

As a trans woman, I may not have the right body to participate in women's sports because doing so may be unfair to other women and potentially dangerous in the case of contact sports. So i think it may be fair in some circumstances to exclude us on this basis.

This does not make us any less female. It's just a case of acknowledging the reality that we are cursed with a male-typical body and as such need to accept some limitations on what we can do.

A good analogy would be a situation in which an athlete has a genuine medical condition which means she needs to take a particular medication. However this medication happens to be a powerful performance enhancer banned in athletics.

So she may find herself unable to participate in sport, through no fault of her own for this reason. The same sort of logic would apply to trans women in certain sports where a male-typical body confers an unfair advantage.

This does not make us any less female

None of you are female otherwise trans wouldn't be a thing.

“This does not make us any less female”
Wait , you just said you were females cursed with a “male typical body“. That’s a contradiction. How can you be a female with a male body? And yes, it will be fantastic to recognise that those people with male bodies should not be in women’s spaces. This is precisely the thing that we have been arguing for all along!

Male body, female brain. Trust me, it's not a fun place to be.

@MiladyRenata
I studied neuroscience in grad school, and I was taught there was no such thing as a “female brain.”

Bizarrely, it was the clip I saw from South Park that really drove it home for me. I think those guys are geniuses in using satire to cut to the chase, even if I can only watch it now and then.

Firstly, I think Sean Ingle sees the issue clearly, and has to work to get objectively written articles in. I think he’s doing a good job.

Second, there is no way any male who has had puberty blocked and is on oestrogen is going to be in any fit state to play rugby. They are being managed as patients in a constant state of iatrogenic ill health, mentally and physically. If any of them are remotely interested in playing a hat physical sport like rugby I’ll be shocked, but I wouldn’t object to anyone playing rugby because they don’t have the advantages of male puberty. Pre-pubertal boys are stronger than prepubertal girls generally, but I don’t think it would be noticeable. HOWEVER, I categorically object to this being used and seen as a positive goal resulting from the use of puberty blockers in children. “Being able to play contact sport with the opposite sex” in no way justifies this medical pathway and all of its negative effects. I’m looking at you, Owl.

Finally, I’ve said this before, but it’s completely arse backwards that sporting organisations are having to fall over themselves to demonstrate scientifically that adult males shouldn’t play contact sports against women. The onus should NOT be on anyone to demonstrate this fact. The onus should be on transgender sports activists to publish high quality research, have it peer reviewed, published, and repeated over the years to demonstrate consistency.

Males should prove why they should be allowed into women’s sport, women shouldn’t have to prove why they want to exclude males.

I will give World Rugby a tip of the hat though, at least they’re not just sitting there saying “sure, come on in!” like many other sports.

Please don't use the term "male" to describe trans women. This is not our identity. We are female.

I'm not very well versed on it all, but I think they're referring to your sex rather than gender/identity when they say "male", Renata.

Please don’t steal a biological descriptor to describe your identity/feelings. Transwomen are male. It’s a scientific, incontrovertible fact. This study is about biological differences. Words with meanings are required to make those differences clear.

Transwomen are not female.

The mind matters more than the body. I know that I'm female.

The mind matters more than the body. I know that I'm female.

Tbh, on a rugby pitch I'd be more concerned about the 15 stone male body crashing into my slight frame.

The only balls on pitch in a game of female rugby should be rugby balls.