Removal of Single Sex Sessions at Harrogate Turkish Baths

[HJ372]

In the local newsletter thing all tucked away was this.

"We're considering the removal of single sex sessions from the timetable at the Turkish Baths in Harrogate to reflect the increase spotlight on equality and balance across the world.
This change will allow complete accessibility during the opening timetable to all genders.
We see this as a positive development allowing greater access to all our customers and allows us to fully consider all genders and orientations fairly.
We would welcome your thoughts and comments on this potential change to ensure we have fully considered all views."

They then link to a survey.
wh1.snapsurveys.com/s.asp?k=159049528689

So... firstly, they aren't considering this removal because the single sex sessions are quiet or an unused service. They're doing it to 'reflect equality and balance'.

They already do mixed sex sessions so they're essentially just removing a service. What the fresh hell is this? How do we make sure this doesn't get changed?

I have been here a few times and it's lovely. Mixed sex would be very different.
Spa time for me is with female friends only.
I have filled it in as an occasional user. I honestly would not go to a mixed sex session. I'd just go elsewhere.

A couple of times my son's swimming lesson took place at a health club that had a very small steam room just off the pool area. I went in while the lesson was in progress. Gradually a couple of men joined me and it dawned on me that I was sitting almost entirely naked in a dark steamy wooden cupboard with two strange men. I rapidly left and of course one of them had a good ogle as I climbed past him and down off the little wooden shelf.

Steam rooms involve relaxation, in very little clothing. Relaxation and little clothing can make women vulnerable. To think that single sex sessions aren't necessary is just bizarre...

Oh no!! This is a massive disaster! The Turkish Baths is one of the best things in Harrogate and you can be nekkid and freeee, just women.
Fuck. I won't go anymore and neither will any of my friends or family. Why are we not allowed to have nice things?!

@IfNotNowThen2

Oh no!! This is a massive disaster! The Turkish Baths is one of the best things in Harrogate and you can be nekkid and freeee, just women. Fuck. I won't go anymore and neither will any of my friends or family. Why are we not allowed to have nice things?!

Anyone else wondering if the issue was actually that a certain subset of the population with that little bit of extra equipment wanted to come to the ladies' session and get nekkid and free? And this was the only way the baths could stop it? No more single sex sessions, all mixed sex with cossies?

Yup, not allowed to have nice things about sums it up.

Anyone else wondering if the issue was actually that a certain subset of the population with that little bit of extra equipment wanted to come to the ladies' session and get nekkid and free? And this was the only way the baths could stop it? No more single sex sessions, all mixed sex with cossies?

Of course this is the reason. And, rather than defend women's rights under the EA, it's just so much easier to take our services away, isn't it? After all, we're only women, so that does it matter?

How is excluding several women from religious backgrounds with prohibitions on mixed sex swimming "inclusive"? Shows their priorities.

I commented that I thought this change would exclude more than it would include.
My friends and I have a yearly trip to a spa as a treat. Once we went (not sure if it was to Harrogate) and there was a couple having a treatment and although they were perfectly nice people and didn't actually interact with anyone else it subtlety changed the dynamic. Not in a good way. Conversation when the chap was in the same space stopped or became very stilted (not just my group, but all the women in there were less open and chatty).
One of my spa friends and I often swim together and sometimes go to the sauna in the leisure centre (Council run) if blokes are in there it's always less comfortable - even though not one of them has been inappropriate, the vibe is just more guarded.

Responded, I go with friends and female only space is sacred

That gets my back up straight away

What gender are you? 😡

My local health suite and swimming pool removed all single sex sessions, the health suite is now a men's club. I do still go because the spa pool really helps with my chronic pain condition but have often felt uncomfortable, I would say 90% of users are men.

I did write to them and talked to them but no change.

I've been there several times and there's no way I'd feel relaxed or comfortable at a mixed session. I've filled out the survey to that effect. So that's at least one genuine user they'll lose if they scrap the women-only sessions.

Filled it in. I've got zero interest in attending a mixed session.

There is no power on earth that could get me to use Turkish baths (which for the record I've used and loved in the past) with adult men. It's meant to be a relaxing experience, and would be anything but if there were random adult males wandering around.

Our local pool has women only sessions and these are popular with religious women. They are unlikely to attend mixed sessions as adults (although they will take their small kids to the small pool). Once the girls get to an age where they cover up, they won’t go to mixed sessions.

I've been to the baths dozens of times , since my early 20s- I'm now 50. Back in the day it was single sex sessions only- often filled with little old ladies - everyone able to enjoy it either being naked, wrapped in a towel or costumed. No judgement, no staring, peaceful and ( back then) cheap! It was modernised and became more of a destination- so you had to chose your session carefully to avoid the noise of hen parties etc. Mixed sessions started but still mainly single sex. Now they are mainly mixed sessions so I don't go very often at all. I don't want to be sweating in a cossie, conscious of my flabby post children body and feeling uncomfortable in my a confined space eg steam room or sauna with a strange man . Plus their voices and man spreading take over. I have replied.

I should add that my response mainly addressed the issue at the nub of this- excluding a lot of women to avoid dealing with making decisions on those that identify as trans. And I got bloody annoyed that their equality questionnaire refers to the actual Equality Act ( and not Stonewall law) and then asks for gender- which as we all know is not the same as sex and thus not a protected characteristic. Truly sick of having this argument - professionally I am a lawyer in a super woke employer

I just wanted to add that I attended a women only steam and sauna for some time. Many / most of the women attending were Muslim, some were Orthodox Jewish, some were survivors of sexual violence, some lesbians and some were just women who felt safer or enjoyed the penis free space.

One of the most valuable assets to the wider community of singe sex spaces is of community cohesion.

I think it is very easy for women who are not Muslim to project all manner of issues onto a woman wearing a veil. The veil can make a Muslim woman seem "other".

In a woman only space, even though the Muslim women wore "modest" costumes, they did not wear a veil and we all sat around in the steam and sauna chatting about women's issues.

I made friends amongst a wide variety of cultures and backgrounds who I otherwise may not have made.

Occasionally a man would stroll in, as happens at the women's pond, at which point one of the non-Muslim / non-Jewish women would confront him on behalf of the women who were unable to and demand that he leave. This alone was something that created and consolidated friendship bonds between women of different cultures.

Single sex baths and saunas are a huge asset to communities and play a significant role in breaking down barriers of misunderstandings and projections and enhancing community relations between groups that might otherwise not meet and socialise.

I filled in the survey - I used to live near there, and still go there when I’m in Leeds or on holiday in the north west - I make a day trip to visit.

I emphasised how they’d be in breach of the Equalities Act particulate excluding Jewish and Muslim women. And that my experience of sexual harassment meant I would never go to a mixed sex session.

If the issue is gay men meeting there for sex/intimacy on men only sessions, then deal with that, not change things for everyone else.

I completed the survey.

That's a breach of the Equality Act unless they make separate provision for women with PTSD due to male violence, which is legally a disability and therefore protected by the EA.

Unlawful discrimination in the name of "equality". Stellar.

@user18522478987665

That's a breach of the Equality Act unless they make separate provision for women with PTSD due to male violence, which is legally a disability and therefore protected by the EA.

Unlawful discrimination in the name of "equality". Stellar.

You may be right. Now try and enforce it.

Rights that cannot be enforced, are no rights at all. Worth remembering.

Have filled in survey and bumping. Please everyone fill this in, it's really important to a lot of women in Yorkshire!

It appears you can fill it in as many times as you want... The poster above saying it should be done properly with users of the Baths has a point. They will be inundated from both sides I imagine

It appears you can fill it in as many times as you want...

Of course. You don't think they give a toss what it says do you ? It's just a shiny to keep protestors distracted.

Gaming surveys is an unhelpful, not to mention dishonest and unclassy thing to do. TRAs don't think those values matter and do this constantly; they have a reputation for it which someone needs to clue the Turkish Bath in on as I have no doubt the political lobby will ensure it looks like the entire population of Yorkshire is LGBT and dying for the end of single sex sessions.

But bear in mind, one of the reasons Liz Truss has said they are being cautious around women's rights is because her office realised how massively and dishonestly the consultation had been treated by one side. Please don't add ammunition that GC women are equally untrustworthy and will act in bad faith; by and large we're the people arguing that there are values and standards everyone must stick to regardless of how you feel at the time. It is utterly galling to have to witness bloody awful behaviour and not just join in to try and make it less unfair, but it's important not to add evidence to the often said and very untrue public statement 'both sides behave as badly as each other'.