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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Eve Appeal responds to criticism against TWAW

170 replies

MoreSchnitzelPlease · 16/07/2020 23:38

I follow Eve Appeal on Instagram. It is a charity that raises awareness for gynaecological cancers. I did not expect this kind of response from them, and I am so hurt by their comments. How is it possible that trans women would need the services of this charity? How can you be tested for a gynaecological cancer when you do not possess female organs?

www.instagram.com/p/CCt6HK6lehL/?igshid=1t693pbic6ouz

How can a charity for gynecological cancer say that TWAW? It feels like I'm living in The Twilight Zone. I can't support a charity that goes against science. This feels like such a betrayal. Women are not disgusting for going against TWAW.

OP posts:
truthisarevolutionaryact · 20/07/2020 15:26

@Manderleyagain

And I saw on twitter - the Jo's charity only 3 yrs ago did research showing 40%of women don't know what the cervix is. So talking abt 'people with a cervix' instead if women is really not in the interest of most women.

3 yrs ago they were centering women in their communication - it's happened since then.

And despite their own evidence they put women's health at the back of the queue because a tiny % of born males need centring somewhere that is not relevant to them.
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 20/07/2020 17:59

Griefmonster yes, I read the response as "some cancers are female, get over it". They are saying that transmen are susceptible to female cancers and need to be educated and treated appropriately.

I haven't seen them say anything about TWAW, and they use "woman" instead of "cervix haver" - presumably as many of the women they work with don't have a cervix any more and it would be crass in the extreme to use nouns like that.

CrazyToast · 22/07/2020 01:08

Can the cervical smear also detect the type of cancers which may be present in a neo-vagina?

It terrifies me to think that, in the rush to seem 'inclusive', trans women might be getting the wrong test and so their cancers may not be being detected or correctly diagnosed.

If the smear also detects these neovaginal cancers then there certainly needs to be a campaign which encourages screening, but it should be a 'smear' for 'vaginal cancers'. It isnt cervical cancer and shouldn't be incorrectly diagnosed. How scary that health is being risked now, for this.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 22/07/2020 01:15

@CrazyToast
Can the cervical smear also detect the type of cancers which may be present in a neo-vagina?
It terrifies me to think that, in the rush to seem 'inclusive', trans women might be getting the wrong test and so their cancers may not be being detected or correctly diagnosed

Why would a trans woman be getting a smear test though? I really think people are misunderstanding here, it's trans men who their post was referring to, not trans women! Ie biologically female)

wellbehavedwomen · 22/07/2020 08:24

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains you need to read the thread. Yes, there was a poster vehemently insisting that trans women get cervical cancer. Despite not having a cervix.

Nobody is arguing that trans men don't need regular smears, if they retain a cervix. Because they're female.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/07/2020 08:34

I really think people are misunderstanding here,

No they weren't.

goose124 · 22/07/2020 08:49

Hi, I'm the op on the thread about trans women getting smears. I was definitely referring to male to female trans women, not trans men. I know that trans men need smears because they're female. My friend was specifically talking about "neo vaginas and neo cervixes" and stating that they needed a smear, just like bio women do.Shock

goose124 · 22/07/2020 08:52

and I've just noticed that it's been deleted and have no clue why as it's quite an important discussion to have: the deliberate misinterpretation of basic science to promote an ideology.

BaronessBollyKnickers · 22/07/2020 09:07

Its depressing how many fucking posts about penises there are one thread about cervical cancer.

Yep.

Soontobe60 · 22/07/2020 09:16

@wellbehavedwomen

If it has the same cellular structure as something then it is that something, regardless of personal belief. Thats the beauty of science, its often rather easy to identify if something is the same on a factual, definitive basis, as much of science can be measured in absolutes.

Cancer is the body's own cells, refusing to die. Those cells are extremely specific. A primary cancer, let's say breast, invades breast tissue, because they are composed of breast tissue suffering from a mutation which means cells no longer die in order to be replaced by new, young, healthy cells (autophagy). If those cancerous breast cells travel around the body (usually via the lymphatic system, but potentially also via the blood) they can invade the healthy tissues of any other body part and start growing there. Most commonly the bones, or the liver, but it can be brain, peritoneum, even eyes. Anywhere. But no matter where they metastasise, they remain breast cells. They are identifiable as such upon biopsy. They are not ever cells of that body part. They remain of the breast.

If someone has no cervix, then they do not have cervical cancer. The cells will be identifiably of the originating body part. There was an extraordinary case of a transplant donor, who had undiagnosed metastatic breast cancer. Four organ recipients ended up with her breast cancer growing in their bodies. It was possible to trace the cancer back to a deceased organ donor's breast tissue, across every recipient.

Cancer is specific at a cellular level. Parabasal cells - the 'similar' in the study you cite - are found in cervical smears where the patient has an endochrine disorder - too low oestrogen and/or too high androgen (male hormones). The study further notes that the cells are, "similar" which you have misinterpreted as, 'the same cellular structure as a cervical cell.' They are not cervical because the body's DNA has coded instructions for growing every single body part. Cosmetic surgery can't alter someone's DNA. Men can't grow cervical cells; the DNA lacks the capacity.

Endochrinology is often very important in cancer, affecting treatment pathways, and disease processes. That's relevant and important in trans people's cancers if they have been treated with hormones, as it is in women on HRT for example, and it's wholly right that appropriate, informed care should be provided. That doesn't mean someone without cervical cells, and without DNA capable of creating such cells, suddenly has them. Pretending that it is cervical cancer is not in the interests of the patient, because that patient needs specialist care.

If a trans man is likelier to engage with smears if the leaflet talks about, "people with a cervix", then there needs to be literature and an approach from the clinicians that adopts that language, for that cohort. We need to help people. That's the bottom line. But you know what isn't inclusive? Erasing women from all the literature, in case accurately reflecting biology, anywhere, might upset a small minority. That minority deserve respectful literature for their needs, just as women of immigrant communities, who don't speak English fluently, need and deserve leaflets that they can read and understand in their own language. But the main literature should state women, and female. Because that's the form that benefits the vast, vast majority of patients, and their needs, interests, and feelings matter too.

Rendering language around women problematic unless it centres a small minority of males, or those who identify as men, is misogynist. The word 'woman' has had a meaning - adult human female - for centuries - centuries in which women were property, and subject to men's whims and demands, and now, finally, we have rights, a concerted attempt is being made to remove any means of accurately identifying who we are. And, please note, that it's not a demand made around men. Nobody's insisting prostate cancer information erases men, just as the Scots government left the legal definition of 'man' well alone. As always, it's women who are at the sharp end, and whose rights - rights based upon recognition of us as a legal class of people - are threatened.

There's a reason 'misogyny' has the 'gyny' in it. Hatred of women is biologically-founded: demanding that women ignore that is about as progressive as demanding that black people abandon all reference to race. You can't counter a bigotry you are not allowed to name. Biology matters. It's the foundation of women's oppression. Biology is the reason. Gender is how.

Eve was a woman. That's why they named the charity.

And this cancer survivor doesn't need some self-important, officious little dipshit on Instagram (with a drama degree. You shock me) to tell me I'm a woman, even without various bits of my female anatomy. My every cell encodes that I am one. In hundreds of years, if they dig up my skeleton, they'll know that I was one. I'm so tired of the fatuous, facile wankery trotted out mindlessly over all of this. Be who you want, live as you like, and I'll fight for your right to do so, and your right to be free of harassment, abuse, and discrimination. But biological facts remain. They will outlive us all, and they don't care what you think.

Outstanding post, @wellbehavedwomen

👏🏻👏🏻💕🌷

Soontobe60 · 22/07/2020 09:19

@CrazyToast

Can the cervical smear also detect the type of cancers which may be present in a neo-vagina?

It terrifies me to think that, in the rush to seem 'inclusive', trans women might be getting the wrong test and so their cancers may not be being detected or correctly diagnosed.

If the smear also detects these neovaginal cancers then there certainly needs to be a campaign which encourages screening, but it should be a 'smear' for 'vaginal cancers'. It isnt cervical cancer and shouldn't be incorrectly diagnosed. How scary that health is being risked now, for this.

No, because a cervical smear requires there to be a cervix present. When you have a smear test, the cells are sent to a lab that looks specifically for abnormal cervical cells. When I had a biopsy for skin cancer, they didn't check for abnormal cervical cells.

If a bloke thought they had cancer in their man made vagina, they'd need a biopsy. Not something a nurser practitioner can do at the GP surgery.

MonsteraCheeseplant · 22/07/2020 10:13

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

wellbehavedwomen · 22/07/2020 11:56

I think other people have commented that HPV can be an issue, and neo-vaginas do seemingly need to be checked, because, rarely, there may be a cancer present, and early detection and treatment is lifesaving - for everyone. It's not a cervical smear, but it's essential anyone who could have cancer has the suitable checks. If calling them some form of specialist smears gets people engaging, then that's fine. Whatever works. I really don't care as long as people get the help they need.

I don't really care who they are, what the tissue is, or what the descriptors are. I just care that someone gets their cancer detected as early as possible, so that they can be helped.

It's also worth saying that I was wrong on saying you can always tell where the cells came from - tumour cells are graded by how similar they are to their originating cells (the more poorly differentiated, the worse it gets), so if someone is diagnosed very late with multiple advanced metastatic cancers, then the primary site - the cells the cancer came from - may never be known. But the fact remains: you can't have cervical cancer without a cervix.

Again, what matters is that everyone engages with the medical professionals best able to help them. And the language needs to reflect that. Female people get gynae cancers, and it's just silly to pretend that's transphobic. Female is a biological term. If someone has dysphoria around their sex, by all means, create literature to help them. Just don't allow that to dictate the language all other women - all other female people - are permitted to use, and have used, about them. Biology, in medical care, is important. So is clear language.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/07/2020 13:42

Yes, all for people in small populations being targeted with the language to appeal to them. Not ok with population health messaging being confusing, inaccurate and unclear for everyone to pander to the feelings of a minority group who wish to deny biological sex.

MonsteraCheeseplant · 22/07/2020 15:34

Cripes what did I say that got deleted? I wasn't trying to be offensive I don't think Grin

MonsteraCheeseplant · 22/07/2020 17:54

Apparently we get deleted now for being mildly impolite as I was in my comment that someone on the thread has left because of robust debate. This board is policed far more stringently than any other.

wellbehavedwomen · 22/07/2020 19:49

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Yes, all for people in small populations being targeted with the language to appeal to them. Not ok with population health messaging being confusing, inaccurate and unclear for everyone to pander to the feelings of a minority group who wish to deny biological sex.
Yep. This is the issue. Given dogs were mentioned by a PP: to do anything else means the tail wags the dog.
ChakaDakotaRegina · 23/07/2020 02:12

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8545525/Gynaecological-cancer-charity-forced-delete-Instagram-post-barrage-transphobic-abuse.html

Picked up by the DM but sadly with ‘barage of transphobic abuse’ headline.

Comments see sensible however.

OldCrone · 23/07/2020 07:38

I wonder why they haven't included any examples of the 'transphobic abuse' or 'nasty online comments' in the article?

nepeta · 23/07/2020 08:22

In a general sense it is very important that we are allowed to keep one word to mean female-bodied people. If 'female,' too now is interpreted as only a gender identity, then how are we going to define the group which suffers from sex-based discrimination? That group clearly no longer quite coincides with 'women and girls.'

As an aside, I hate the way language is re-purposed without there being any kind of public discussion about it. Suddenly I realize that I am no longer a woman, based on the gender theory definition, because I don't possess some abstract gender identity as a woman.

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