Interesting debate on Horse and Hound re trans at the moment

[FleecyMoo]

Predictably there are a lot of women defending the need to call women 'cis' but some women are trying to explain that woman is a complete word!

It's inexplicable really isn't it ahumanfemale* ?*

I was going to suggest that maybe the H&H types are just a bit more accepting because they don't see a problem with it. As a pp pointed out, it's a mixed sex sport, so no problem there, they all get to use the same stinky portaloos so full equality there unless they are posh enough to have the sort of horse box with its own facilities. And they wear pretty much the same kit. So it really doesn't affect them, indeed, they probably hardly notice if someone transitions, they're much more interested in their dogs and horses anyway. So it's easy to preach compassion and acceptance.

I'd still expect them to "know" though. Sex is a spectrum....everywhere except the farmyard!

Perhaps we should all join the forum? It's free. The Trojan horses of FWR. I wonder how it's moderated and how quickly dissenting voices get banned?

Did no-one read my post above? Stop maling sweeping generalisations about horse owners! We are far from a political monolith and there are as many socialists as conservatives on Horse and Hound forums.

The actual discussion itself has gone slightly towards the gender critical. Only one really strong TWAW voice and a couple of be kiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnd voices ( to whom noone has pointed out that most transwomen have had no surgery ).

I did read something tge other day, probably on here or a link from here, that was saying that the TWAW and sex us a spectrum act like religious beliefs in the brain and so remain untouched by evidence. So a person can hold a huge level of cognitive dissonance around those beliefs because they are somehow protected.

Hence a farmer being able to belief sex is a spectrum while simultaneously knowing exactly how to create more livestock each year!

Apologies for typos!

Horses can certainly tell the difference between men and women. One of my childhood ponies was shit scared of men. If a man (other than my dad, who he got used to) came into the stable he would head for the corner and quiver. When we’d occasionally have to swap ponies at pony club and one of the (very few) boys would have to ride him, he would get all of a lather. Poor wee soul. I’d like to get my hands on the man that did that to him.

did read something tge other day, probably on here or a link from here, that was saying that the TWAW and sex us a spectrum act like religious beliefs in the brain and so remain untouched by evidence. So a person can hold a huge level of cognitive dissonance around those beliefs because they are somehow protected.

Yes I think that's true. I don't think people are engaging with the statement in any way.

Pretty sure they all know that gelding a horse doesn't make it a mare.

This^^

It reminds me of how I used to believe in transubstantiation. I both believed that the wafer was the actual, literal Body of Christ but also knew I wasn't eating actual human flesh. The cognitive dissonance is described as a sacred mystery...

Sorry. Forgot to quote. That is in response to Erishkigalangcleg

There’s a Transwoman Jockey in Racing at the moment, though they have only ridden once under a female name and that was in a Charity race - finishing second.

Vince Smith was an average jockey, winning 250 times over a long career (to put into perspective the top jockeys ride 100+ winners every year) and has “lived as a woman” since 2017, going by the name Victoria. Victoria has not undergone any surgery.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5761213/Transgender-jockey-rode-250-winners-man-makes-history-race-woman.html

FannyCann, even a breeding stallion can work (fight wars, compete in dressage, show jump, whatever), even with mares around, because they’ve learned to behave themselves. They have bern taught acceptable behaviour in public vs the bedroom, as it were.

Isn't it interesting that horses can be taught to behave appropriately in public, but men can't be taught to behave appropriately in public and not attack transwomen in the men's toilets.

What techniques are used on horses? Could the same training be used on men who can't behave themselves?

I'm imagining a whole army of indignant 'no nonsense' Princess Anne types and older men with handlebar moustaches spluttering about it all being a 'rum do'.

Not all people who ride are like - good bit of stereotyping, though.

Waves to my fellow H&Her's..

I'm also baffled as to how people so involved with animals cannot grasp the binary nature of sex (obviously excluding any genetic abnormalities - my parents had a dog that although visibly appeared female, had what appeared to be underdeveloped Male sexual organs inside, we never investigated further so exactly what was going on we will never know).

Surely if you know how animals reproduce you cannot deny there only really being two sexes, Male or female?
The equine world does generally seen to accept gender diversity pretty well (racial diversity not so much ), and is very much an equal sport.

Though from what I can gather the majority of 'terfs' arnt against equality, I wouldn't want a trans man or trans woman to be discriminated against on on the basis they were trans however, l dont want an open door policy if you like which we all know will be open to abuse. I think because of the expensive nature of the sport this affords a lot of people the privilege and protection from these scenarios. They arnt poor, likely to end up in a prison, have the option of not using grotty, crowded primark changing rooms (I know this is a bit of a generalisation, but with money comes the ability to shop in places with smaller changing rooms, probably with a staff member watching over them).

OldCrone the training usually involves discouraging sexual behaviour when it is not required - displaying, drawing the penis, etc.

People often use different sets of tack for different tasks, so the stallion learns that Bridle A means it’s time to do normal work but Bridle B means it’s time to go see the mares!

I work in Racing so once the top colts are retired they often have to be taught that sexual behaviour is “allowed” again as they’ve been discouraged from showing it during their racing careers.

I also glanced over that thread, interestingly one poster who is strongly defending the TWAW stance has posted in the past (I posted on a thread of hers, distinctive username) asking for advice about her mare who is very 'Marish'. I hope she wasnt misgendering her horse, by her own deeply held beliefs she has no reason what so ever to believe her horse is a woman. Perhaps the aggressive behaviour was a display of unhappiness at being treated as female when they felt they had been born in the wrong body?

I may go back and amend my advice to her on her previous thread..

What techniques are used on horses? Could the same training be used on men who can't behave themselves?

Of course horses that prove intractable to training usually get gelded.....

I clicked on this as my female dog has recently started cocking her leg, but obviously I've massively missed the point.

top colts are retired they often have to be taught that sexual behaviour is “allowed” again as they’ve been discouraged from showing it during their racing careers.

Sex education for horses! Who knew.
Muses...educational materials...

Made me laugh. It just might work....

The nag & mutt set will have a very grounded understanding of what's male & what's female.

I've joined the forum over there based on this discussion! Will go and have a look.

One of my favourite feminist moments IRL was when an old huntsman at the bar in the officers mess was pontificating about how women shouldn't be allowed to work and in the same breath asked for a refill of champagne from my horsey mate's bottle. She replied that if she couldn't work she couldn't buy champagne and told him to fuck off

Just before everyone heads over to HHO expecting a load of Hugh Grant and Henrietta who flit about like the protagonists in Riders... I hate to disappoint.

I speak as a HHoer and horse owner and most of are dirt poor (horses are expensive) and come from pretty much every political spectrum.

I'm a lefty feminist who agrees with JK Rowling oh and I'm pro hunting

Sooooo curious as to who the HHOs on mumsnet FWR are. but don't want to say who I am so will have to contain my curiosity.

Waves to the other HHOers - there are more here than I have previously spotted. Did you all join after the HHO penis beaker thread???

Anyway off to have a look at what they are saying over there. There are normally some very sensible views.

@Lexilooo >waves> been on HHO even longer than here.

Both wayyyyyyyyyu before PB when all these 'ere were fields,,,

Did HHO have a penis beaker, how did I miss that. I can imagine. Thankfully I've always had mares bit not had to deal with sheath cleaning.

Perhaps the punishment for thinking sex is a spectrum should be to clean a stallion or geldings sheath.

That will sort out the err... men from the boys.

@WomaninBoots

It reminds me of how I used to believe in transubstantiation. I both believed that the wafer was the actual, literal Body of Christ but also knew I wasn't eating actual human flesh. The cognitive dissonance is described as a sacred mystery...

Sorry. Forgot to quote. That is in response to Erishkigalangcleg

That explains a lot. The sacred mystery explanation of cognitive dissonance! No wonder as a child I could not figure out why people where so irrational about religion! Thanks for that connection.