Times: Parental failings ‘spawned an infantilised generation’

[Lamahaha]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/parental-failings-spawned-an-infantilised-generation-s78q5t7zw

Interesting article.
He said that, similarly, the debate on transgender rights had challenged the binary distinction between men and women, just as in politics the boundary between public and private lives has become blurred.

Professor Furedi argued that the dismantling of moral boundaries has created a paradox. Young people who have grown up without them abhor others who make moral judgments.

I agree with him. I was raised by an extremely liberal mother who provided no boundaries whatsoever -- which got me into a lot of trouble in my late teens. Luckily I realised soon enough what was happening and corrected myself; I gave myself rules and boundaries and tried my best to stick to them. It was the best move I ever made. Long story...

Sorry, I still can't get a share token. When I click on the mail signa, I get a "share to email" pop up but no link. I managed it once but never again.

I think sometimes the parent needs to stand in for the immovable quality of some aspects of the world. and take the flak for it, unpleasant as it may be

I like this way of conceptualising the role of parent. It would explain the rage of the indulged children when they get into the world and find that the world is quite immovable. And that among the many other things the world doesn’t do, the world has no interest in validating your identity.

Yes I also really agree about being steadfast and immovable to reinforce a boundary, even if it makes your child upset and angry with you. Of course there’s also the tricky business of setting the boundaries in the right place as well, as being very strict could be counterproductive - but with a reasonable boundary, e.g. hitting people is not ok and gets you removed from a situation, you have to do it and let them be furious. Part of it is not giving in in that situations because the child needs to feel that you are bigger and stronger than their emotions and can contain them until they calm down. Imo.

I’ve seen situations where kids of permissive parents actively seemed to be trying to get them to impose a firm boundary and desperately trying to provoke them, and getting nowhere and just screaming in frustration.

@BertieBotts I think I went through all these stages with my children! In many of the later stages - unconditional parenting and so on, I believe that boundaries still exist. These may be couched as 'expectations', or needs of other people (compromise between the need of the child with other needs). I have always viewed this as like learning to walk. A toddler has to learn the floor 'pushes back'. When they are confident of the solidity of the ground, they can walk with confidence. So setting boundaries is part of the loving and healthy child development process and bond between caregivers and child.

That's interesting Kantastic. Similar to what I think about the epidemics of both violent porn and passive aggressive abuse/gaslighting etc in relationships, which I believe are both partly reactions in men to having to toe the new official line that women are their equals. They are no longer allowed to be the official head of the house and dish out the odd slap to the woman in their life so the cruelty or desire for power or whatever it is, comes out in different ways.

I’ve seen situations where kids of permissive parents actively seemed to be trying to get them to impose a firm boundary and desperately trying to provoke them, and getting nowhere and just screaming in frustration.

I agree. And you see the child behave worse and worse and never find the boundary. The simple, firm 'no' never materialises. Parent inevitably thinks their child is 'spirited'; everyone else has quite a different word for it.

This is really fascinating, I feel way out of my depth with a lot of the parenting methods being discussed! I wanted to pick up a bit on the infantilsation of adults bit though because it struck very true.

Among a lot of my DH's friends (all in their 30s) is a tendency to really cling to the same interests they've had since teenagers. They like the same bands, watch the same films, have the same hobbies, all of which are targeted at teenage boys. Some of the group have grown up and moved on but the others seem stuck in the early 2000s.

It's a bizarre failure to launch and I feel there's something linked to the Internet that is causing it rather than purely being a parenting issue. Anyway my point is, this infantilisation extends beyond the young to the now ought to be actual adults.

That would explain also the weird toddler rage of grown adults sobbing because JK Rowling told them she doesn’t really believe in their fantasy world. They are living in that world long after most of us have put away childish things.

Interesting discussion, though the article itself is a bit bloggish. My personal view is that if you look at successful young adults, there will be some evidence of self-discipline and I would be willing to bet that their parents did indeed set boundaries.

Desirable secondary schools often have stricter uniform codes than those that perform less well. There is, inevitably some game playing here, expensive uniform being a good way to put off the hoi-poloi whilst simultaneously attracting families where parents will be more likely to encourage good behaviour and support learning. The uniform, and stricter behaviour code that goes with it has cachet with parents and local employers.

It is also true that people tend to marry and have children later than in years gone by, but around 50% of school leavers now go to university, and most live away from home. We all joke about students washing piling up and them living off pot noodles, but they mostly survive and thrive.

So I think it is probably true to say the "some" young people have been infantilised. Probably not all though. It's an easy and lazy stereotype, and one that should be applied with caution.

Its funny because one of the MN old skool mantras is simply "No is a complete sentence". Is it a wonder that a site full of mothers, where that mantra is encouraged for every type of relationship or situation, is framed as the one which is most full of 'hate'.

I also have found that I have been infantilised by older people in my local community and how it runs. I'm 42 never mind in my 20s or 30s! And they are in their 70s and unwilling to pass local power to younger generations. So there is an element of the Boomer Generation almost clinging to power for me too.

@SarahTancredi

I must say I am amazed when I see my children’s friends’ parents coax and cajole them to do something - like leave a play date for example. I stand in the hallway eye rolling while nice mum persuades her 9 year old to put his shoes on. Ten minutes later we are still there. My mum - now 80 - would not have tolerated this and not do I

God I think we have all done the kicking screaming toddler under arm thing

Sad thing is if MN is anything to go by you are judged if you do the whole softly softly cajoling thing. And judged if your kid throws a tantrum. I think really it comes down to how much you care what other people think of you.

Personally if I see a screaming child I'm.just glad its not mine that day. I always try to give a friendly understanding smile.

The child in question here is 9, though.

The stats are actually 50% of 18-30 year olds had participated in higher education as of 2019. Around 30% of school leavers now go via ucas at 18. So not quite as many go away from home as we think. Other young people get higher qualifications but not necessarily degrees and not necessarily as school leavers.

I think those who don’t fly the nest can be scared of leaving home and like a nice settled life with someone doing the masks for you. It saves a lot of money too.

I think some parents don’t want to let dc go and they don’t see them as adults or even on their way to being adults. It does mean they can lack confidence and don’t always shine when it comes to life experience and interviewing well.

In America, young people are getting more educated about world affairs, more concerned about poor people than about multi- billionaires, want universal health care, and support gay marriage. Huge, wonderful changes from what people their age 25 years ago believed.

In America, these beliefs will get you labelled a liberal,a snowflake. You aren't supposed to care too much about others.

The older generation thinks poor people should be judged. And billionaires got rich by being exceptional.🙄

Our ruling billionaire class, who owns our media, hates "snowflakes" and "softies" because soft, kind people, particularly men, won't support our stupid wars anymore, and won't support unbridled Capitalism-things our elites like.

I see a massive problem with parents being bad examples for their kids, parents who are highly dysfunctional and pass on their dysfunction to their offspring.

And child abuse is still rampant. But all our media focus is on what spoiled snowflakes millenials are, and blame permissive parenting.

Yikes I didn't mean to write so much😌.

@Antibles

I’ve seen situations where kids of permissive parents actively seemed to be trying to get them to impose a firm boundary and desperately trying to provoke them, and getting nowhere and just screaming in frustration.

I agree. And you see the child behave worse and worse and never find the boundary. The simple, firm 'no' never materialises. Parent inevitably thinks their child is 'spirited'; everyone else has quite a different word for it.

What I find interesting about this is often parents who operate this way are of the view that it's not good for children to be too upset or stressed. So they hum and haw over boundaries, and everything ends up being a big drawn out power struggle, but one waged as if it is something else.

When the boundary is set, while their might be a kick back right away, long term I think it makes for much less stress. Charlotte Mason, who trained teachers in the first half of the 20th century, said mothers should instil good habits in children because they made for smooth and easy days - for both parent and child. I think there is a lot to be said for smooth and easy in your day to day interactions.

I really think what our children are most missing out on is being able to run free outside with their friends, away from the constant parental gaze.

I believe that negotiating with their friends, receiving their peers opprobium at times should be part of growing up.

But that is no longer a choice for individual parents. Society as a whole decided that this should not be allowed.

Man tells mothers they're doing it wrong...

How is this feminism?

@Gobb, I totally agree

Having painfully tried to raise a son with special needs for 14 years now I can tell you I have heard all these arguments levelled at me time and again. It didn't help then and some of the comments on this post sound like all the people in my life who assumed they could do a much better job than me.

I thought feminism was about structural analysis. How about using a structural analysis of how unsupported parents are in this society, how individualism adds more pressure to mothers to be everything to all people? How capitalism marketises perfect parenting as the default and encourages us to tear each other down? About how women suffer disproportionate levels of trauma that challange their ability to parent. About poverty etc etc. Parent blaming is easy but naive at best and counter productive at worst.

There have been some thoughtful posts. Thank you especially to @BertieBotts, you describe perfectly the journey I have been on with my son.

The parenting discussion has been interesting if a bit judgemental. I think if you are looking at a large shift in society then you cant really point the finger at individual mums who struggle to say no as there has always been varied parenting ability. There must be a reason a huge section of parents stopped saying no around 20 -30 years ago if we are agreeing that current adults are not growing up. Eg one thing that had a big impact on my parenting cohort was a particular barnados advert that was aired repeatedly and was quite haunting basically saying 'child has learned not to cry because noone comes'

Cakeytea - i agree. I didnt want to talk about my experience with my son with special needs as it didnt feel like a safe environment so thank you for standing up.

I can assure you no one I am discussing had special needs. And please no to ‘safe spaces’. There are undoubted lot very different approaches required to parenting a child with special needs and it would be interesting to hear about them. But that doesn’t mean that many of the MC parents of NT kids struggle with authority in a way that I think is unhealthy and will do damage.

There must be a reason a huge section of parents stopped saying no around 20 -30 years ago

Has this happened though, or is it something that's always been around? I think there have always been indulgent parents or those who avoid conflict but its now that its combined with changes in society that its having an impact.

I definitely think the internet is a cause - it allows people to lock themselves into a niche group that think exactly like them, so is self-reinforcing, you can present your own (possibly false) self image, and avoid going out and meeting people who may call you on your crap.

Sorry my post is completely incomprehensible

The fact that parenting a special needs child requires different approaches does not mean that there isn't also a problem with MC parents of NT children who struggle with authority.

It may be that this has always been the case as Lasagne says. But yesterday my son's friend (10) told me I looked tired in front of his mum. Who laughed and tousled his hair.

The idea that I would even have spoken directly to one of my friends' parents - except to answer a question - is horrific to me. Let alone that I would make a comment like that. And then to have my mum fondly ruffle my hair ....

Obviously kids don't know what's ok to say and what's not so I don't take exception to what he said (and I did look tired ). But we've come along way from my childhood and not all of it's good. I can see that the basic inhibition we had which meant that you never spoke to a friend's parent if you could help it was too much. But something has gone wrong I think.

@Binterested

I used my son as an example but the difference is not so clear cut. My experience is that typical children (I have 2 as well as DS) thrive in all sorts of environments. I am a fairly permissive parent myself (yes, I hold my hands up!) but this has actually helped me shift the goal posts in what my son needs. My girls have learnt passively from me what adulthood looks like but my son can't do this. And more structured, disciplined parenting made him worse. So I had to learn a different, softer way. And you know what, my younger daughter had thrived with this approach being applied across the board in our house. She was one of the terrors described in this thread (although I wasn't afraid of her) but had blossomed into a helpful, thoughtful, but strong willed person but I have also had criticism for how I raise her.

I think I used speceil needs as an example, to highlight the need to 'walk a mile in my shoes' before passing judgement on others.

I think the problem is about why parents cannot say No to children without special needs though. SN isn’t the majority of DC. I do think that people laugh at rude children. They do think children can rule the roost and that’s ok because their child is happy. In reality they may not be.

I sometimes see children misbehaving whilst with parents in a dining pub totally and the parents totally ignoring them. I just couldn’t have done that. I wanted my dc to be pleasant and independent members of society. To ensure that you have to interact with the child. That takes time and effort. That’s the problem isn’t it. Time and effort and parents are not inclined to do it because dc must be happy at all costs.

Binterested yes i appreciate it sounds very snowflakey. But im the wrong generation for that. I am in the best generation.

My take on behaviour is many of the techniques used for children with SEN are equally effective on other children but some require a parent to suspend ideas about being in total control and rigid boundaries. I have a child who cant be rewarded, or sanctioned and doesnt look to others to model his behaviour on (but he does understand no for somereason) it was only by getting my head around all these ideas being useless that i made progress. i also have another child who i can do anything with - reward, sanction, model, follow my sen version - it all works. His desire to fit in with society comes trumps. Copying is one of the main ways children learn to behave.