Times: Parental failings ‘spawned an infantilised generation’

[Lamahaha]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/parental-failings-spawned-an-infantilised-generation-s78q5t7zw

Interesting article.
He said that, similarly, the debate on transgender rights had challenged the binary distinction between men and women, just as in politics the boundary between public and private lives has become blurred.

Professor Furedi argued that the dismantling of moral boundaries has created a paradox. Young people who have grown up without them abhor others who make moral judgments.

I agree with him. I was raised by an extremely liberal mother who provided no boundaries whatsoever -- which got me into a lot of trouble in my late teens. Luckily I realised soon enough what was happening and corrected myself; I gave myself rules and boundaries and tried my best to stick to them. It was the best move I ever made. Long story...

Sorry, I still can't get a share token. When I click on the mail signa, I get a "share to email" pop up but no link. I managed it once but never again.

Coincidentally I've just started reading 12 Rules for Life -- an antidote to chaos, by Jordan Peterson, and the start is brilliant; about Moses bringing down the 10 Commandments and finding the Children of Israel in revelry and worshipping the golden calf. He writes:
"we are ambivalent about rules, even when we know they are good for us..."
"....and if I'm a free agent, my first reaction to a command might just be that nobody, not even God, tells me what to do, even if it is good for me. But.... .... without rules we quickly become slaves to our passions -- and there's nothing freeing about that."

I think school uniform has its place. My DDs went to boarding schools where a school uniform, as specified by the school, was the norm. One supplier: parents bought the uniform. No issues and no squabbles. Choice brings about squabbles.

It’s interesting that my DDs are hugely independent. They were able to roam at home and in London without me chaperoning and then were prepared for university. They also can debate effectively. Debating was a big thing at school and one of mine is now a barrister. So still wears a uniform! They also learned that being an individual was fine. Many DDs at the school had varied interests be it fashion or football. They could explore what interested them without judgement. Girls especially should be allowed to do that. They should also be allowed to eloquently question rules. Young people should be listened to but should certainly be asked to justify why they think in a particular way. Just indulging them doesn’t help them.

I do see parents always making excuses for DC and letting DC set their own boundaries. They find this difficult of course due to their inexperience and inevitable lack of knowing what is a good boundary to set.

I think the lockdown has shown the difference between stroppy DC who won’t do any school work and others who quietly get on with it. Plenty in the middle whose parents have set boundaries but kick against it. However not setting expectations and standards affects all of us in the end. Thank God the majority do!

If anything is infantilising it’s treating children, teenagers in particular as somehow different to adults

But they are different. Very different. It’s not infantilising to treat children and teenagers like children and teenagers. It’s infantilising to treat adults like children.

My mum was pretty open but we had very clear boundaries and she was in charge. No doubt. Ultimately what she said goes. That’s how it is in my house.

I must say I am amazed when I see my children’s friends’ parents coax and cajole them to do something - like leave a play date for example. I stand in the hallway eye rolling while nice mum persuades her 9 year old to put his shoes on. Ten minutes later we are still there. My mum - now 80 - would not have tolerated this and not do I. I have a lovely relationship with my children but I make no bones about the fact that ultimately I determine the basics of our life. I’m also too busy to accommodate these kind of pointless negotiations. They get play dates - because I want them to have fun. But when it needs to be over it’s over and I’m the arbiter of that.

I knew from the thread title that this would be Frank Furedi..

OP ‘Extremely liberal’ is politics, that doesn’t equal no rules. Being liberal has rules like any other political stance.

Firstly the oldest "millennials" are 38/39 now. Secondly I agree with pp that this is a middle class issue (and arguably a white British one) as there are plenty of millennials and Gen Zs with strict, authoritarian, distant parents. Are those people displaying a massive advantage over white middle class young people?

And the talk of safe spaces - it's generalising. There are 22 year olds who voted Leave, there are young people who have fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, there's no way you can lump everyone born after 1981 into a huge group and assume they are all social justice warriors who failed to launch due to a lack of boundaries.
Everyone I know has clicked "like" on one of those Facebook memes describing their idyllic childhood and how they ran wild and it never did 'em no harm - and there are versions talking about being a kid in the 60s, in the 70s, in the 80s and in the 90s. Soon enough we'll have one for the 00s.

This is just a book plug.

I agree Binterested. The more you negotiate, the more you abdicate.

DC with no parents around are at a distinct disadvantage. These are rarely middle class.

It’s an interesting article but I don’t really identify with it. I’m a middling aged millennial and in my circle of friends we all had rules and boundaries. I look back on it as a time in 90s and early noughties when we were still allowed freedom to roam but we had boundaries enforced. Especially in schools, I really can’t relate to that bit at all as it was kind of the opposite of schools now as in there were less health and safety rules but more behavioural orientated rules.

I did know people who had very little rules and parents were more of a ‘friend’ but in my experience this was usually due to the parent having mental health/drug problems or struggling economically. It wasn’t a general rule of parenting of the time, certainly not in my social circle.

@Binterested how do you treat adults?! I’d never wait around cajoling an adult into leaving with me. If they didn’t want to I’d just leave. That’s what my parents did to me on the odd occasion I was being an arsehole and it’s what I’ve done to my children. Unsurprisingly bratty children refusing to leave with a parent when they’re reliant on that parent to get home hasn’t been a common behaviour in my family. Likewise we don’t accept any bad behaviour from children or teenagers, we might forgive it relative to the child’s development but we certainly don’t expect anything less from children just because they’re children. Obviously that results in frequent disappointment (especially in their early years) but the frequency rapidly decreases.

I must say I am amazed when I see my children’s friends’ parents coax and cajole them to do something - like leave a play date for example. I stand in the hallway eye rolling while nice mum persuades her 9 year old to put his shoes on. Ten minutes later we are still there. My mum - now 80 - would not have tolerated this and not do I

God I think we have all done the kicking screaming toddler under arm thing

Sad thing is if MN is anything to go by you are judged if you do the whole softly softly cajoling thing. And judged if your kid throws a tantrum. I think really it comes down to how much you care what other people think of you.

Personally if I see a screaming child I'm.just glad its not mine that day. I always try to give a friendly understanding smile.

With adults I’m not in charge so the situation doesn’t arise.

Not had a chance to read the article yet but I think millennials were raised with boundaries?

There was a thread not long ago about parents who give themselves the best & expect the kids to slum it. Obviously there were some extreme examples but some posters thought it was awful to have hand me downs/2nd hand uniform etc particularly when parents can afford to buy new. I found it odd because I had 2nd hand stuff & still buy some things 2nd hand now & would never think to question my parents motives. I don't smack my dc but was occasionally smacked on the bum but again don't judge my mum for that. However my parents are immigrants & not English & I was always aware that despite my hand me downs etc I was very fortunate compared to my parents childhood or how my relatives lived.

I found this article a little confused. Perhaps i am tired or maybe the book explains it better. I couldnt quite see the link between lack of moral boundaries/judgements and the whole safe space not wanting to hear other point of view.

I think late teens are infantalised by keeping them out the workplace and the housing market more than me being permissive about hair style boundaries.

I'm seventy and my mother did everything for me, wouldn't even allow me to wash my own underclothes when I reached puberty and would screech if I attempted to. She was far from liberal and wanted to keep me as a child as long as possible, consequently I couldn't wait to get away from her clutches. I had zero privacy.

My son is forty, nearly forty one. We were fairly liberal but there were boundaries; he has always been independent and is very easy going.

We cannot generalise about children, they are all different as are parents. Nowadays a lot have to stay at home longer than they would like because of difficulties getting on the housing ladder and high rents. That's just how it is. They can still do things for themselves, manage money etc, and have a right to privacy, ie not be treated as 'grown up children'.

I agree jess the liberal parents are more likely to encourage independence in their children rather than doing everything for them.

@Binterested yeah, that’s my point. Instead of enforcing acceptable behaviour it’s better if the person chooses to act that way in the first place. As a starting point I expect good behaviour from everyone and act accordingly (obviously relative to the situation, a toddler would be carried out kicking and screaming in the same way a drunk adult might be but a fifteen year old would be informed of imminent departure and expected to either come or sort themselves out for example). It means that once a child become an adult they’re already perfectly capable of making their own decisions because they have by and large done that all along (according to their capacity of course). Telling a child what to do isn’t the best grounding for independence.

I found the Times article to be in a similar vein to this article:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/609901/

I generally agree with the premise that parents need to be grown ups, distinct from the child role.

And contrary to a PP I found attachment parenting types to be the worst for having no boundaries. It’s an environment where the theory departs from reality because so many attachment types I have met make it all about the child never crying, never experiencing any challenge, at no matter what personal cost or inconvenience to the mother. And it’s always the mother who is put out by dealing with 4 year olds up multiple times a night, hitting etc.

I also find it a far greater problem with middle class types. Giving in to your kids is a luxury.

See I think nice mum at the door thinks she’s liberal because she’s given her kid choices. But actually the inability to self control means the kids are less independent than they would otherwise be. How can you let your kids out to play at the park or go out for the day with friends if you cannot trust them to regulate? To get back when you told them? Not to go to places you told them not to go to ?

My children both have quite a bit of freedom. My 13 year old is out and about all over London on her own and with friends every day. But there are limits and those are set by me. She’s learning independence.

I don’t agree that telling a child what to do does not lead to independence. Children are not adults and cannot reason in the same way, nor can they be expected to. I will tell my children what to do until such a time as they can make sensible independent decisions- and those change almost daily as they grow up. For example, I’m not going to give them a choice about what food we have in the house. I’m telling them, effectively, to eat fruit and veg and a healthy diet, because they aren’t necessarily capable of deciding to make that choice in the face of junk food etc.

Good point Binterested by giving your children boundaries you’re giving them the skills to be more independent. It comes up again and again that children now don’t know how to risk assess.

My son went to holiday with sister in law and they met up with her daughter (his cousin of course). Later sister in law asked my son a question and he answered that he felt his cousin was 'entitled'. My sister in law was shocked and then asked everyone else what they thought and they all agreed with my son. The daughter is 23 my sister in law said she just had wanted everyone to be happy!!! how does that work in life?

I still dont quite get the boundaries weakening with each generatiom aspect. I'm so confused. So for those of you that have lots of boundaries around clothes what are they based on? One of my son's goes to a school without a uniform and choses what to wear but its not without boundary - it has to be relevant to the weather and the activity ( eg forest school in the rain is wellies and a rain coat, shorts and a t shirt with suncream and a hat in the sun) his brother goes to a uniform school and they wear a blazer in 30 degree heat and arent allowed to wear a coat to travel in even if its cold or wet. Is the idea my uniform son pushes against the boundary of uniform and that helps him develop into an adult but my other son wont get that opportunity and is kicking against an open door.

I’ve s a lot while my kids have been growing up. On the one hand every generation moans that kids today don’t know they’re born. But I think one big thing that has happened is that with the end of physical discipline (which I agree should have happened) has come this view that all discipline, or ever making your child unhappy at all, is bad and abusive.

Before DC I thought I’d be the liberal one because I’m pretty left wing and unconventional. But among the parents I’ve met, there have been loads who will not do anything at all to upset their DC, even if it’s just saying we have to go now to get somewhere on time, or get off the swing to let someone else have a go. They might ask / plead but they won’t lay down the law because if their child cries or is upset they feel bad. One friend said “I can’t bear it if they ever cry” - they were toddlers! And had her in the palm of their hand. Another whose child hit me full in the face which really hurt, Wouldn’t reprimand him and just told him “oh, you don’t mean to.” I’ve even met parents who openly opposed all boundaries as a bad thing, and have said things like “we don’t use the word no in hour house” . I’ve no idea how they think anyone is supposed to learn basic norms of behaviour, or How to cope when something doesn’t go your way. I’ve been given many shitty looks and tuts for carrying screaming toddlers out when necessary, saying no or even worse using the word “naughty”

It’s definitely not all parents, but it’s a lot and I’m sure it contributes to young people having difficulties coping. But as pps have said personality plays a part too and some will work things out for themselves/with their peers.

I absolutely do think you can generalise about children’s behaviour. And it’s unrealistic in many cases to expect children to choose to do the right thing in the first place - they will probably not have the neurological development to arrive at the same definition of what the “right thing” is as the grown up/rest of society. It’s difficult to watch a parent attempting to “reason”/negotiate with a child when it’s clear the child is not giving two hoots that if they put their shoes on they can do X or Y- for the child, they are operating in a different plane of logic.

Oops I meant “I’ve thought about this a lot”