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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Times: Parental failings ‘spawned an infantilised generation’

176 replies

Lamahaha · 13/07/2020 10:09

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/parental-failings-spawned-an-infantilised-generation-s78q5t7zw

Interesting article.
He said that, similarly, the debate on transgender rights had challenged the binary distinction between men and women, just as in politics the boundary between public and private lives has become blurred.

Professor Furedi argued that the dismantling of moral boundaries has created a paradox. Young people who have grown up without them abhor others who make moral judgments.

I agree with him. I was raised by an extremely liberal mother who provided no boundaries whatsoever -- which got me into a lot of trouble in my late teens. Luckily I realised soon enough what was happening and corrected myself; I gave myself rules and boundaries and tried my best to stick to them. It was the best move I ever made. Long story...

Sorry, I still can't get a share token. When I click on the mail signa, I get a "share to email" pop up but no link. I managed it once but never again.

OP posts:
AllWashedOut · 13/07/2020 16:39

The lack-of-boundaries style of parenting already has a name: permissive parenting. My FIL now 91 was subject to extremely permissive parenting (and still lives on essentially the diet of a child: chocolate, cream and cake). My Dsis is an example also of permissive parent and her two boys, well, they have major behavioural issues. Permissive parenting has been shown to be damaging to children's development.

Stripesgalore · 13/07/2020 16:42

Dealing with mental health is not the same thing as being in loco parentis.

It is indeed the case that many big institutions (including universities) have horrendous management systems and Offer mental health provision. I suspect they offer the provision because it is a cheaper way of increasing productivity.

I don’t think mental health of adults or children is entirely their own responsibility or their parents’ responsibility. It is a shared social responsibility. Work is within the social realm.

highame · 13/07/2020 16:45

I wonder if the massive economic impact of lockdown will have organisations weeding out what is superfluous. For the first time I notice that MC occupations could be under threat in a big way. I will be interesting to see how the chips fall.

We have become a lazy nation of bored, unchallenged people, the forthcoming adrenaline rush might be interesting

My0My · 13/07/2020 17:16

I do think there has been a massive change in parenting and response to parenting. My DM in her 90s tells me of the draconian rules and violence meted our by her father. The rules he set were to be obeyed whether they were reasonable or not. DC had to work as well as do school work. Most went out to work early. Lots left home to get away from overbearing parents. Most have not continued to be like that.

highame · 13/07/2020 17:21

My DM in her 90s tells me of the draconian rules and violence meted our by her father.

My Grandfather was like that to my mum and my uncles, they all left as soon as they could. I am glad majority parenting is civilised now, but I think, like someone said earlier, there is a balance.

Goosefoot · 13/07/2020 17:30

@Stripesgalore

Dealing with mental health is not the same thing as being in loco parentis.

It is indeed the case that many big institutions (including universities) have horrendous management systems and Offer mental health provision. I suspect they offer the provision because it is a cheaper way of increasing productivity.

I don’t think mental health of adults or children is entirely their own responsibility or their parents’ responsibility. It is a shared social responsibility. Work is within the social realm.

But it's usually considered part of health care.

Employers do have a health care role, they need to provide days off, a safe and healthy environment, maybe they provide extended health insurance and so on. And if they want to do things like lunchtime aerobics or yoga, that's great.

But why access health services through an employer, be it to get your ingrown toenail removed, or to deal with depression?

Stripesgalore · 13/07/2020 17:42

I don’t know why some people want to access NHS mental health services via the workplace, but the NHS keep sending in health care professionals so they must think it serves some role.

Most health care isn’t provided by health care providers. It is provided by wider society.

The workplace should certainly be playing some part in people’s mental well being, but that doesn’t mean it should be the role of the employer. A great deal is surely about workers caring about each other.

jessstan2 · 13/07/2020 17:51

@highame

My son went to holiday with sister in law and they met up with her daughter (his cousin of course). Later sister in law asked my son a question and he answered that he felt his cousin was 'entitled'. My sister in law was shocked and then asked everyone else what they thought and they all agreed with my son. The daughter is 23 my sister in law said she just had wanted everyone to be happy!!! how does that work in life?
I don't 'get' that. To what was the cousin entitled, what exactly did your son mean by saying she was? It all seems very deep for a meet up with cousin and surely it isn't unreasonable for your sister in law to want people to be happy on holiday. Sorry if I am being dim but I just don't understand what that has to do with kids being infantilised, or the article in the opening post.
Kantastic · 13/07/2020 18:11

This is making me think of the John Cleese and Robyn Skynner book, Families and How to Survive Them which I read at the age of about 19, when it was profoundly revelatory and completely changed how I thought about the world. Here is Robyn Skynner discussing the value of "cruelty" in the context that all emotions are useful and important parts of human nature.

Robin Yes, because sometimes we have to hurt someone for their own good. That's necessary even with the people you love most. Or perhaps especially with them. For example, parents need to help their children gradually to become more independent. But that always entails a certain unhappiness on the part of the child, since his first taste of independence usually makes him feel rather anxious and frightened. However, if the parents get it right, they can allow the child to suffer a little more discomfort each time so that he can learn, bit by bit, to face and overcome his fear, and grow in confidence.

The model of psychology in the book is that people and families and societies suppress certain emotions which then get expressed unconsciously.

So... we have a bunch of young adults whose parents suppressed their own "cruelty," who grew up in a social context where open cruelty was highly stigmatised, and who therefore express the cruelty in their own nature in ways they are unconscious and unaware of. So far so accurate, I think.

One of the most disturbing things to me when looking through this lens of analysis is porn. It's pretty clear how lots of people who grew up in this world of universal "kindness and inclusion" are sating their suppressed appetite for cruelty. I think some of them are getting the message, unconsciously or even consciously, that the only acceptable targets for cruelty are women.

The Cleese/Skynner discussion of political extremism is also very relevant and interesting.

Stripesgalore · 13/07/2020 18:17

That’s really interesting Kantastic.

In terms of independence, don’t children get independence from parents earlier now due to preschool
Childcare.

There doesn’t seem to be much consensus on the impact of early childcare, but there did seem to be some agreement that it made children conform more to the peer group.

Kantastic · 13/07/2020 18:19

(btw should mention since I've written so positively about that book that it is old - it was even when I read it - and lots of it is a product of its time. The underlying model of psychology is a very useful one but some discussion, e.g. of autism, is really bad.)

BertieBotts · 13/07/2020 18:28

In my observation (for what it's worth which might be nothing!) we seem to have gone through this kind of "evolution" of movements in parenting - and this is how I see it. Feel free to correct/argue/disagree! I'm guessing at the timescales.

First (80s/90s?) there was a shift from physical/mental domination of children in order to frighten them into behaving to the idea of token/mildly annoying punishments which still give the message that you've done something wrong, or are bad enough to want to avoid, but don't actually traumatise the child - e.g. naughty step/spot/chair, sending to room, missing playtime (in schools), stopping pocket money, removal of a favourite toy, grounding, etc. Later as screens start to play a massive part in a lot of kids' lives you can add screen ban to this list. I think of this as "Supernanny" type parenting. It's simply replacing older physically dominating methods with nonviolent methods, but nothing else about the parenting is changed really. You're just swapping the threat of a smack/beating for the threat of grounding or naughty chair. However because the penalty for misbehaviour isn't scary any more, what becomes really important is consistency, clear expectations and routine - many parents struggle with those things. And for many children who might struggle with certain expectations, although they are not being constantly hit/living in constant fear any more the lesser punishments may not work for them at all, which is where you get the idea that "parents are too soft these days".

Next or as a response to this (late 90s/2000s), there was more of a shift towards "Positive parenting" or the idea that too much punishment/telling off can still be harmful to a child's self esteem, even if they aren't awful or terrifying, and create a self-fulfilling prophecy where a child is always told they are bad/lazy/mean and so they will act bad/lazy/mean. So instead you look for reasons to tell them they are good/hardworking/kind and they will become that value. Reward charts became popular, parents were urged to "praise the good, ignore the bad" and "label the behaviour, not the child". Naughty step was out, thinking step/time out was in. There's a lot of good, sensible stuff here. You get more out of people in general by encouraging what you want rather than just yelling at them when they get it wrong. But I think a lot of people took the idea of negativity being damaging to heart and took from this that it's important never to let children have a negative experience because it might damage them. And I don't say that in a judgemental way, because I can absolutely understand where that mindset would come from. But anyway, this approach is too simplistic because it still does not offer a solution to unwanted behaviour which persists despite punishment and/or positivity.

So the next response (I want to say late 2000s, although it was present before, even currently used schools of this have been around since the 60s/70s, and anybody who has worked with "difficult" children in ANY time period knows this from experience - but this is when it became popular enough to be mainstream, IMO) and very familiar to me because this is when I had DS1, is the idea that all behaviour is communication, when children misbehave, it is because they have an unmet need. This tends to be the "gentle parenting" school of thought, e.g. Taking Children Seriously/Unconditional Parenting, often highly correlated with attachment parenting, and a lot of the focus is that you don't punish bad behaviour, because the behaviour is either a misguided attempt where the child does not know any better yet (and it's better/more effective to teach them the correct way through kindness/modelling/reason than threats, or just wait until they are older) or it's an expression of some kind of trauma or unmet need, which you can work through and that will stop the behaviour. It's also a shift in mindset from the idea that parents automatically know best and should control their children's behaviour through the use of reward, praise and/or punishment and reasoning. Instead the idea is that children are learning, they don't always get it right but we should support them, and also, that it's important to listen to children and take on board their point of view. Sometimes the adult will know better because of their life experience, but not always. So there is also an encouragement to pick your battles somewhat and not go after every little thing.

Most recently, I am seeing two more approaches/responses pop up at the same time. One is about persistent behaviours being related to lagging skills and so methods to explicitly teach those skills (which I think is fantastic actually, but has very little to do with this discussion). The other is a concern about the way "gentle parenting" resources often discuss boundaries, and a common pattern which is that people who tend to be conflict avoidant and/or struggle with personal boundaries and/or have people-pleasing tendencies tend to be drawn to a parenting style which promises that you will never have to punish your child and you don't need to engage in power struggles in the first place. There's a very good explanation/examples of this here.

That's the missing piece of the puzzle IMO and the part that has been lost. I don't think it's overly helpful to blame parents - parents only ever do what they can and what they think is best for their children. I honestly don't think that a lack of boundaries or an avoidance of anything negative has come from a place of laziness - it's misguided but it comes from a good intention. We probably had to move away from the overly harsh methods of boundary setting in the past in order to create and understand the importance of boundary setting as a fundamental thing.

Sorry I'm getting a bit rambly, because I'm tired and I'm going to go for a sleep but I really wanted to get these thoughts down because I've been wanting to for a while and I think it's quite relevant here. I'll be back later (possibly) or tomorrow if I don't get up again! I will try and read one of the articles, as I've only skim read this thread's response.

jessstan2 · 13/07/2020 18:33

Interesting, Kantastic, but I can honestly say I don't feel any desire to be cruel to anyone. When I was a youngster I had the odd flash of resentment. I had people being cruel to me at times and could never work out why or what they got out of it; it certainly didn't help me. If I made a mistake I took the consequences and tried not to do it again but cruelty is a vicious emotion, corrosive to the person who administers it.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 13/07/2020 18:36

Hm. I'm an employer and we do take steps to support staff with mental health. Actually we do a lot to foster a healthy pleasant and supportive work environment. I think that's part of being a good employer - partly I think we're obligated to do what we can to help work be a positive part of people's lives - why not?! And partly it ensures we have happy, loyal &dedicated staff and a very low staff turnover.

That said, I do notice a certain difference with younger staff who have great confidence that isn't always backed up by ability. And one memorable interview, where candidate was accompanied by both parents. Grin

Kantastic · 13/07/2020 18:44

It' s a language issue, I think, jess. If you've got strong boundaries you don't feel any need to be cruel or sadistic to anyone - but people with strong boundaries are seen as cruel by people with weak boundaries. If you've got strong boundaries the "cruelty" here isn't cruelty - it's good parenting, or strong leadership, or being an effective surgeon or psychotherapist or doctor, or even self-discipline.

People with weak boundaries, on the other hand, will resort to passive-aggressive behaviours or self-harm to get the "cruelty" out of their system.

I don't think the word "cruelty" captures the meaning adequately, but I'm not sure that any single other word or phrase would either.

Stripesgalore · 13/07/2020 18:46

That was really useful Bertie.

I also think part of moral values is that people do not all share the same set of values. Many parents know seem to have a reluctance about imposing on children any particular notions of what good behaviour might be, possibly because the parents don’t know what they themselves value, and possibly because they think the child should choose their own values along with their own clothes, food etc. It’s gone from my child will choose their own religion when they are older to my child will choose their own morality.

So it isn’t just about how we teach children to be kind/good/hardworking, but whether we even bother with any attempt.

Stripesgalore · 13/07/2020 18:51

I am confused Kant. There are genuinely aggressive, sadistic and cruel people who are aggressive, sadistic and cruel without being passive aggressive. Do they have strong or weak boundaries? And what do you mean by boundaries here?

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 13/07/2020 18:52

We teach values by modelling.

RedToothBrush · 13/07/2020 19:02

Well - maybe it's a middle class thing. Friends who are more trad working class have no problem instructing their kids and using discipline. I suppose the post modern questioning of authority has led to much of the permissiveness, and more trad working class families are more likely to have the authoritarian type of model, which has its own issues

Don't agree with this at all.

I know several wc mothers who are incapable of saying no to their children, and its really starting to show in terms of their childrens' behaviour.

The stricter parents I know are all most definitely MC.

In terms of extremely liberal parents, my parents were, and they never taught me or my brother how to cope as adults. It most definitely has been a problem for us both.

I don't think its about being liberal as such, but about teaching life skills in terms of independence and responsibility - thats where my parents were most lacking.

I do note that my parents both had extremely strict upbringings but had odd childhoods were their parents were absent especially in terms of passing on lifeskills too.

Shedbuilder · 13/07/2020 19:05

Haven't had time to read the whole thread.

Last time I heard of FF was a few years ago when he was proposing that we stop faffing and fussing over children and allow them to learn some lessons the hard way. The example he used was allowing children to climb trees and take the risk of falling and hurting themselves. Breaking an arm was a price some would pay, a tiny percentage would suffer worse but the majority would learn a useful skill — how to safely climb a tree.

Kantastic · 13/07/2020 19:13

I am confused Kant. There are genuinely aggressive, sadistic and cruel people who are aggressive, sadistic and cruel without being passive aggressive. Do they have strong or weak boundaries? And what do you mean by boundaries here?

They have weak af boundaries I only mentioned the passive-aggressive/self-harming types because I was thinking about female socialisation. But yeah, take an archetypal male TRA - he will absolutely express his cruelty but his cruelty won't count as such in his own mind, because it's justified cruelty against aggressive transphobes (or because it's porn and no kinkshaming.) What that person has in common with a passive-aggressive or self-harming types is denial of their own mean streak.

I'm a bit hesitant to define boundaries because it'sf a deep question. It's easy to see when someone has really bad boundaries, they'll act paranoid, take small things personally, assume that anything they don't like is personally directed at them, etc. "Strong boundaries" is a harder concept to define! It's got a lot to do with the Buddhist idea of shrinking the ego - like when your boundaries are really really good, you don't take anything personally, not even your own thoughts.

Stripesgalore · 13/07/2020 19:20

That does make sense. I understand what you mean about the ego.

I am watching the Ferudi interview and it is very good. He is though referring to the infantilisation of adults and the adultification of children, where we ascribe you children and teens moral authority they do not possess.

SenselessUbiquity · 13/07/2020 20:22

Goosefoot - "And it steals away the child's chance to really be pissed off at the parent," - yes! I really agree with this. I think sometimes the parent needs to stand in for the immovable quality of some aspects of the world. and take the flak for it, unpleasant as it may be. Be the authority and accept that the child sometimes find authority really uncomfortable and unpleasant.

Deliriumoftheendless · 13/07/2020 20:26

BertieBotts that’s a very interesting post.

When you say “lagging skills” do you mean in a sense such as Marjorie Boxall practiced?

SenselessUbiquity · 13/07/2020 20:27

BertieBotts, that was a very strong post - thank you

I disagree though that there is only a minor difference between painful punishments and symbolic punishments. I think it is a big shift. To me it is really powerful - it is like the difference between a 10 foot gate with spikes and barbed wire that prevents a person from entering a space; and a silk ornamental rope hooked over small ornate freestanding posts, that symbolises that you may not go there. A dog couldn't get into the first; some dogs would wander into the second, some would understand not to. All humans beyond a certain age would understand that as "do not go in here". I think it is a qualitatively different thing, that the "punishment" is not a deterrent because the child can't face the pain of being beaten (for instance), but because the symbolic punishment reinforces the social contract.

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