If being trans is just like being gay....

[ThatsHowWeRowl]

Then how come there is such a distinct pattern between the sex of the transitioner and the stage of life at which they 'come out'?

I have noticed this recently but it hasn't really properly registered until now.

Almost all of the very young 'trans kids' seem to be male children who 'want to be girls'. There seems to be a lot of focus on sparkly dresses and long hair.

There then seem to be a lot of females wanting to transition during puberty with a 'rapid onset gender dysphoria' being present in females who had previously been happy in their bodies.

Then we have the 'late transitioners' group who seem to be made up exclusively of males transitioning well into adulthood, often approaching middle age. There don't appear to be any female late transitioners at all, I'm sure a few exist but this group is certainly dominated by males.

Gay and lesbian people who come out also come out at varying stages of life, but there isn't this pattern of gay males and females coming out at different life stages.

It seems to me that socialisation is a huge factor here?

I think you're wrong now @SapphosRock. I know fir a fact that it is much cooler to gold out as trans than as lesbian for teenage girls. I would not be surprised if there was a good deal of correlation between that and the huge numbers of young women identifying as trans.

And @MiladyRenata - I hated wearing dresses as a child. I can remember my fury at being forced to wear them from when I was really tiny to when I was a bridesmaid at 17. Hated them.

I am not transgender and my hating dresses was not a sign that I was.

And @MiladyRenata - I hated wearing dresses as a child. I can remember my fury at being forced to wear them from when I was really tiny to when I was a bridesmaid at 17. Hated them.

"I am not transgender and my hating dresses was not a sign that I was.*

Ditto.

Oh fuckity balls, massive bold fail there. Trying to type and breastfeed.

Totally off topic but in reply to Scotsheather - don’t get rid of dresses and skirts. I hate the feeling of fabric around my lower legs and always wear above the knee skirts, usually a bit A line so they don’t constrict me when climbing over stiles etc. On the rare occasions I wear trousers I am always pulling them out of my arse/fanny and I can’t kick my legs about with the same freedom. I know most women find trousers much more comfortable. Each to their own!

My friends daughter hated being a girl when she was about 8. Got all her hair cut off, wouldn’t wear dresses or girls clothes, wanted to be seen as a boy, this went on for a few years.
She’s now 16 and has long hair, doesn’t wear dresses, just sports gear, and guess what, she’s a girl!
I dread to think what would have happened to her in the wrong hands.

And @MiladyRenata - I hated wearing dresses as a child. I can remember my fury at being forced to wear them from when I was really tiny to when I was a bridesmaid at 17. Hated them.

I am not transgender and my hating dresses was not a sign that I was.

Well,no.Me too. (And I still dislike dresses as an adult)
But surely if you are trans and are having to present strictly in the stereotypical way for your birth sex then you might well want to be able to present as the opposite sex.
So (as a girl) not wanting to present as stereotypically feminine,dresses and "girl toys" doesn't make you trans.But if you are a trans boy you prob won't like them either.And vice versa.

It seems obvious to me that the strong social taboo on boys/men not wearing clothing associated with the female sex is the precise reason some of them develop a fetish about it.

I suspect the concept of trans would never have come about if women's clothing wasn't so verboten and loaded with the thrill of transgression. I mean if it wasn't at its heart about the clothes and the performance, why not just wear jeans and T-shirt and enjoy your ladybrain?

Antibles, what about the body?

Trans people often know from a younger age but suppress it for longer as it's less socially acceptable to be trans than to be gay.

What exactly do you think trans people 'know' from a younger age @SapphosRock?

I've always wondered what trans activists think the connection between stereotypes and gender is. Wanting to wear dresses is a consequence of "being a girl"? Correlated to it? A symptom of it? Or is it purely about signalling, they think the little boy doesn't want to wear dresses because dresses but in order to signal to others that he wants to be addressed as she? It all seems very muddled.

@MiladyRenata please don't think we hate you.
We really don't, as an older woman, I really don't mind you want to wear a dress or grow your hair, that you want heels and make up.
I just want you too see that pre op I don't want you changing in the ladies, it's no fair to little girls, they should not be forced to see male parts. Woman who have run away from male violence are still frightened of what you represent from your past, they deserve to feel safe.
If we could get you to want a third space, as a safe space, for your in between stages, woman would come out and fight for you.
While you can never be a woman, we do respect your rights to alter your outside shell too look like a woman.

I guess the dress thing is a classic example of one person's privilege being another person's punishment. I find the same is true about a lot of "male privilege"; it sounds great but if you aren't cut out to be a tough, ambitious sporty leader, it may not feel that way.

What interests me is that "trans ideology", so to speak, and GC feminism both have a similar underlying goal. Neither group wants a person's biology to dictate what kind of social role they are allowed to fill. I suppose for me being trans is an acceptance that society is gendered (and is likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future), but moving to a gender role that better suits my personality.

Thank you for sharing your experience @MiladyRenata.

I can see how as a younger man you can get rather ‘railroaded’ into life in a certain way and it being very hard to walk away from.

Thinking of some middle aged women I know, they essentially ‘live as men’, what ever that means really. They wear jeans, jumpers, trainers or boots. Short hair. ‘Masculine’ hobbies. But women can live like this without society seeing them as a man. They don’t consider themselves as men or use male names.

My point was that wanting to (or not) wear dresses is not an indicator of anything other than dislike of rigid gender conformity.

Nice insight Milady but surely the feeling of 'wrong body' is exactly that, not 'wrong clothes'. Transsexuals are distressed by their physical body and want to change it as far as science allows which is very limited and unnatural. Thats my understanding anyway.

I suppose in a way if gender and sex can be counted as different things, then that's fine.
To say your a transwoman, is to accept your not happy being a man so wish to look and behave as a woman, I am proud of all my trans friends , as non try to hide who they are.
They have no wish to pretend they have swapped sex, which they know is biological impossible, may never intend to be surgically altered, and seem very happy about this.

@MiladyRenata

I guess the dress thing is a classic example of one person's privilege being another person's punishment. I find the same is true about a lot of "male privilege"; it sounds great but if you aren't cut out to be a tough, ambitious sporty leader, it may not feel that way.

What interests me is that "trans ideology", so to speak, and GC feminism both have a similar underlying goal. Neither group wants a person's biology to dictate what kind of social role they are allowed to fill. I suppose for me being trans is an acceptance that society is gendered (and is likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future), but moving to a gender role that better suits my personality.

Except I reject gender, but I can't escape that gender role because my biology kind of gets in the way.

For starters I'm 5'2". Never mind the tits, periods and birthing bit. I just have to get the fuck on with dealing with the shitty gender roles and don't have the luxury of being able to reject them. Its very much a male priviledge to be able to.

Trans Ideology is ultimately a MAN'S way of getting out of gender stereotypes. It serves men not women. Even females who are fully signed up, gold star transmen. There is NOTHING in it for women.

What exactly do you think trans people 'know' from a younger age @SapphosRock?

You hear lots of stories about children feeling a strong sense of mismatch between their brains and bodies. So the body they have is not what they perceive themselves to be. When this ensures into adulthood they may decide to transition.

Sexuality emerges later doesn't it? I haven't heard many people say they were sure of their sexuality since early childhood, it's generally more of a process from puberty onwards.

@Clymene I disagree. It's very cool to be a lesbian at the moment. Look at Rose and Rosie - 1m subscribers to their YouTube channel. I don't know any trans people who are anywhere near as popular.

You hear lots of stories about children feeling a strong sense of mismatch between their brains and bodies. So the body they have is not what they perceive themselves to be.

So is this like a skinny anorexic who looks in the mirror and sees a fat person?

Isn't a mismatch between brain and body something that requires psychiatric treatment? If the brain is rejecting the body, that's a cause for concern, isn't it?

But being trans isn't just like being gay - anyone who says that is talking out of their arse.

Actually I don't. Every single childhood trans story I have read (and that is many) has started with a mismatch between brain and stereotypes, not brain and body.
Then very small children have little understanding of sex or gender. You need to explain to them that boys have penises, you need to explain to them that having long hair doesn't turn a boy into a girl, or wearing a dress. They observe and they generalise, often wrongly. They try to enforce their wrongly understood rules on peers. ("You can't play football, you're a girl". "But you must be a girl, you've got long hair".)
So basing any understanding of transgenderism on what small children think is standing on thin ice.

They are in their 30s @SapphosRock. I am talking about teenagers. You know the ones who have seen a 5000% increase in referrals in the last ten years. When rose and Rosie were teenagers, 32 girls were referred to GIDS. Last year, there were 1740.

Sexuality emerges later doesn't it? I haven't heard many people say they were sure of their sexuality since early childhood, it's generally more of a process from puberty onwards.

Yes, because they don't understand about sexual attraction until puberty.

What do you think pre-pubescent children understand about being transgender/transsexual @SapphosRock?

@SapphosRock

What are you basing your reasoning on OP? Can you link to any studies?

In my experience gay people generally know they are gay any time from 11 or 12 onwards (ie puberty) and coming out is personal to each individual. Some people may not feel same sex attraction until 30s, 40s or later.

Trans people often know from a younger age but suppress it for longer as it's less socially acceptable to be trans than to be gay.

A bit off topic but I was reading this thread with interest as it’s nice to get some different views, particularly from someone that has transitioned.

I noticed the last part of your middle post and I thought I wonder how often that happens- that you’d start being attracted to a different sex when your much older.

I always imaged you would know from about 12/13 whether you were straight/gay or bisexual. It never occurred to me it could changed in time....

I guess the dress thing is a classic example of one person's privilege being another person's punishment. I find the same is true about a lot of "male privilege"; it sounds great but if you aren't cut out to be a tough, ambitious sporty leader, it may not feel that way.

Female gender roles are not a privilege for women. All men benefit from male privilege even if they don't meet the ideal of masculinity.

Not being tough, ambitious, sporty or a leader does not mean you are not a man (if you are male) or that you are a man (if you are female). Women who exhibit "masculine" traits don't suddenly benefit from male privilege, in fact they are often scorned for it (bitch, bossy, dyke etc.).