If being trans is just like being gay....

[ThatsHowWeRowl]

Then how come there is such a distinct pattern between the sex of the transitioner and the stage of life at which they 'come out'?

I have noticed this recently but it hasn't really properly registered until now.

Almost all of the very young 'trans kids' seem to be male children who 'want to be girls'. There seems to be a lot of focus on sparkly dresses and long hair.

There then seem to be a lot of females wanting to transition during puberty with a 'rapid onset gender dysphoria' being present in females who had previously been happy in their bodies.

Then we have the 'late transitioners' group who seem to be made up exclusively of males transitioning well into adulthood, often approaching middle age. There don't appear to be any female late transitioners at all, I'm sure a few exist but this group is certainly dominated by males.

Gay and lesbian people who come out also come out at varying stages of life, but there isn't this pattern of gay males and females coming out at different life stages.

It seems to me that socialisation is a huge factor here?

[Shmurf]

Yes I know, but that is because of social conditioning, not because dresses are innately and objectively only for girls.

I agree, but one could say that nudity is only frowned on because of social conditioning. I should be able to walk naked through Covent Garden but we know how that would likely turn out.

[brendansbuddy]

You may not have 'felt' your male privilege Milady but it will have contributed to the middle-aged job stability and finances, which as you say enabled you to become a transwoman. You may not fall into this category, but men who live a lie with an unwitting woman and have children with them before deciding to become a transwoman would seem to display a callous absence of empathy. Despite not having the 'guts' to come out when younger, they seem to manage to find the guts to lie to the women and children they supposedly love, while planning their escape at a point of maximum personal comfort. It's interesting that we don't see women behaving with such a sense of entitlement.

[CloudsCanLookLikeSheep]

@OldCrone

The imposition of strictly gendered roles and presentation according to sex is one of the things that feminists fight against.

I had a similar experience to you at school MiladyRenata, since girls weren't allowed to wear trousers, and I was forced to wear a skirt. I felt this was an unfair punishment for being female.

I never thought there was something wrong with me because of this, though. I thought (and still do), that it is society which is wrong to force these gendered roles on everyone.

The point about clothes being 'trivial' is that this could all be changed if we decided as a society that the clothes it was acceptable for people to wear did not depend on our sex. Over the last 100 years or so we have gone from a society in which it was unacceptable for women to wear trousers to one in which trousers on women are as acceptable as they are on men. Why shouldn't we accept skirts and dresses on men in the same way?

Because women are seen as inferior so a woman copying a man is ok but not the other way around. Look at how male names can become female, eg Carol, Hilary, Beverley. But never the other way

[LonginesPrime]

being a lesbian (regardless of one's natal sex) doesn't entitle somebody to act like a jerk (e.g. sexually harass other lesbians, or anyone else for that matter)

No, you're absolutely right, Renata.

The problem is that there is a significant proportion of men who don't respect women's boundaries and who see lesbianism as an affront to their being.

Many lesbians have had a lifetime of men telling them why homosexuality is not really a thing and why they should give that particular man a chance. It happens to me and my friends all the time.

I often find myself having to modify my dress and hairstyle depending on who I'm dating to ensure we're not both noticeably feminine as it attracts far more harassment when men clock that two women are dating. I can relax a bit more about my clothing choices if my date has short hair, but if we're going to a mainstream public place, I would definitely wear jeans and tie my hair back if my date has long hair and wears short skirts, to avoid attracting too much unwanted attention.

If transwomen are attracted to women, then that's their sexuality. It's obviously not something they can control. But IMO, any biological males who call themselves lesbians display a distinct lack of sensitivity and awareness about (1) the constant persecution many lesbians face from heterosexual males and (2) the fact that this persecution often takes the form of denying homosexuality by suggesting that 'lesbian' is merely a state of mind and not based on actual sexual attraction at all.

[Sellotape55]

Spot on Snuggy, Cactus and Salad... the middle-aged transitioner appears to be a completely different kettle of fish. Heavy almost fetishistic preoccupation with clothing of a certain kind less frequently worn by actual middle-aged women (we all remember that terrible quote from Caitlyn Jenner about choosing what to wear). And often dragging women and children with them while they enjoy male privilege, then 'transitioning' when it is most comfortable and easy for them. As a feminist I find that behaviour very hard to love I'm afraid.

[Saladseeds]

If your Dad wants to be a lesbian, why not?
Hmm. Bit simplistic that.
If Dad comes out as gay, his kids don't have to call him a different name and hear his new different put-on voice.
He doesn't expect his partner to stay with him and 'love the inner person', pretend to be a man and have 'man' sex with him to go along with the idea.
His children probably find it a lot easier to believe he is attracted to men, than to believe he is actually a woman; that's pretty f*ed-up stuff.
And gay Dad doesn't usually spend loads of money on a new lifestyle often focussed on stereotypically 'feminine' clothing and make-up (the seemingly universal preference of late transitioners).
His kids also don't have to see or know that Dad has had his genitals cut off and now takes medication to grow breasts.
Dad coming out as gay may stay quite like the previous Dad kids knew; late transitioners often change profoundly in their behaviour.
I doubt those children are treated so harshly if they struggle with Dad being gay as the people around late-transitioners are attacked if they cannot accept, or reject, that strange new invented person.
So no, it's not the same, and I guess you're either being goady or not considering the impact on those left behind, particularly kids. It's not all one big happy rainbow party out there for families left behind; check out the transwidows threads if you want a window onto what it is really like for a lot of people.

[mummmy2017]

An inverted penis reshaped to be a vagina, is never going to change a man into a woman.
Therefore a man can NEVER be a woman or a lesbian.
Do you understand that?
Your being mislead, promised something, operated on and told it will be, but it is all a lie.
But you can be a Transwoman, demand your own space, not try to take ours.

[cactus2020]

Unfortunately Milady some of us think setting up life as a heterosexual man, making a life under that pretence and deceiving a partner and kids until it's not so scary to come out, really IS 'acting like a jerk', and some...

[RedToothBrush]

Lesbians have the right to define themselves and say no to males including those who have changed their gender under the law in this country because the equality act defines homosexuals by sex not gender.

[RedToothBrush]

Homophobia is observable in critical and hostile behavior such as discrimination and violence on the basis of sexual orientations that are non-heterosexual. Recognized types of homophobia include institutionalized homophobia, e.g. religious homophobia and state-sponsored homophobia, and internalized homophobia, experienced by people who have same-sex attractions, regardless of how they identify

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia

Saying that you can ignore the sex you were born and instead identify as a lesbian based on your gender identity is a form of homophobia.

Being homosexual is based on sex not gender.

Attempts to correct gay men or lesbians that it is transphobic to ignore sex and be accepting of hetreosexual trans people identifying as homosexual is forced correctional abuse.

It is not justifiable to say that those born male can be lesbians. They can not.

[OldCrone]

In order to be a lesbian, one has to be a woman. Not a male person who wants to be a woman or a male person who identifies as a woman or a male person who has had surgery and taken hormones to make him resemble a woman.

Men can't be lesbians, no matter how much they want to be because men can't be women. People can't change sex.

'Woman' is not a gender identity. It has a biological meaning: adult female human.

[MiladyRenata]

I agree one can't be a lesbian unless one identifies as a woman. But, to be technical about it, a person could father a child and then change their gender identity.

Oh, and being a lesbian (regardless of one's natal sex) doesn't entitle somebody to act like a jerk (e.g. sexually harass other lesbians, or anyone else for that matter). Obviously.

[LonginesPrime]

If your dad wants to be a lesbian, why not?

I've encountered many a self-described 'male lesbian' over the years, all of whom were heterosexual man, often so awed by their own wokeness and sensitivity that they felt they were practically women.

One of the contexts in which this would come up would be where a man genuinely believed that his sensitivity made him 'practically a woman', which was always amusing to the lesbians, given his astounding lack of sensitivity in making such an offensive comment (disparaging women and homosexuals in one fell swoop). Up until recent years, this always seemed tedious but harmless, just one of those eye-roll moments.

The other (unfortunately common) scenario in which I've encountered men asserting that they're lesbians is in the context of sexual harassment of lesbian couples/groups in bars, clubs, etc.

As a lesbian, one of the best things about lockdown is being able to take a break from male harassment. I'm looking forward to hanging out with my friends again, but it's a shame it's often such a bittersweet experience.

[thirdfiddle]

Also a problem for transboys/men surely. It's hard to signal male with clothes/hairstyles.

[PurpleCrowbarWhereIsLangCleg]

@Whatsnewpussyhat

Maybe there will be a concerted effort to normalise males wearing skirts and dresses

This won't be allowed to happen though as it will "invalidate transwomen". Because if non trans males wear stereotypical female clothes, how could we possibly distinguish between them?

Interestingly, I read an article by a goth TW a few years ago, who found it difficult because lots of gothy blokes wear makeup, skirts, etc. TW objected to this because it meant they didn't get 'read' as female in goth circles, but just as yet another chap in eyeliner...

[thirdfiddle]

I don't have an issue with it personally but let's not kid ourselves that the average lad who wears a dress to school won't get utterly terrorised. Most women don't really seem to understand male culture.

Ok, I have experience of this, a child I know did it. He wasn't terrorised. He was confronted with a school full of confused kids telling him he was a girl/should be a girl, or simply assuming he was a girl because they hadn't been introduced and long blond hair and pinafore. She now identifies as a trans girl. No body dysphoria was evident, he was quite happy being a boy in a dress until the sheer weight of stereotype of school descended.

I have yet to read a story of pre-teen trans identification that wasn't rooted in stereotype, whether the clash came from family imposing stereotypes or family being open minded, encouraging child to break stereotypes, then the stereotype assumptions of wider society crashing in.

[Whatsnewpussyhat]

Maybe there will be a concerted effort to normalise males wearing skirts and dresses

This won't be allowed to happen though as it will "invalidate transwomen". Because if non trans males wear stereotypical female clothes, how could we possibly distinguish between them?

[mummmy2017]

We were talking about this the other day.
If Martians turns up on Earth.
They are unisex, Have boobs , penis and vagina, so everyone can all have babies.
The only thing that differs is they have green skin.
So if an Earth male had surgery to look like a Martian, and got a spray tan to green, could they ever be a Martian.
Or are they simply an Earth man presenting as a Martian.

[OldCrone]

@mummmy2017

So all the men refuse to let a dress into the men's, but feel the females can't refuse to have a penis enter their toilets.
So it's ok to stop men feeling uncomfortable, and MAKE the ladies suffer instead.

That's how it seems. Many men seem to be stuck at the juvenile stage of 'a man in a dress is no longer a real man, therefore he's a woman'. I think that's largely why we've arrived where we are now.

[mummmy2017]

So all the men refuse to let a dress into the men's, but feel the females can't refuse to have a penis enter their toilets.
So it's ok to stop men feeling uncomfortable, and MAKE the ladies suffer instead.

[RedToothBrush]

@MiladyRenata

If your dad wants to be a lesbian, why not?

I don't even know where to start with this sexist homophobic tripe.

[OldCrone]

I don't have an issue with it personally but let's not kid ourselves that the average lad who wears a dress to school won't get utterly terrorised. Most women don't really seem to understand male culture.

I think women on this part of the site understand male attitudes very well. When you say 'terrorised' I assume the 'terrorising' is coming mainly from the other boys.

Like the anecdote someone told on here that when 'Dave' turned up at work one day in a dress and said he was now 'Davina', the men all told him he couldn't use the men's toilets and he should use the women's.

So we understand that many men have a problem with other men who don't conform to conventional standards of masculinity. I do wonder why this is. I assume it's to do with their own insecurity and wanting to prove that they are 'real men' or something.

[OldCrone]

[quote SapphosRock]@OldCrone being transgender doesn't respond to psychiatric treatment. No amount of therapy or pills can 'cure' the gender dysphoria.

Other psychiatric problems such as body dysmorphia do respond to treatment. [/quote]
Can you provide some links to this research @SapphosRock?

[Fieldofgreycorn]

moving to a gender role that better suits my personality.

So the gender role of ‘woman’ has a particular personality?

[borntobequiet]

The false narrative that being trans is like being gay has been an important factor in regulatory capture and general shaping of the public perception of transition.
Just because someone believes something doesn’t make it so. In fact a belief in something that isn’t true is pretty much the definition of delusion.
I recently re-listened to a very good series of podcasts on the history of delusion. About 40 min in to the one linked below is an interesting discussion about the very wide prevalence of delusional beliefs in seemingly normal people (apparently they were once thought to be only associated with mental illness). It’s suggested that delusions are not always harmful and may indeed be a coping mechanism for some people.
I thought it relevant in this context.
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0007lh6