Gymnastics/ballet/etc. and the routine abuse female bodies and minds

[Kaiserin]

TL;DR: Male pain is character building.
Female pain is natural, must be endured and never mentioned.

There's a thread in AIBU which was very triggering for me (and many others)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3964498-Any-former-gymnasts-or-parents-of-gymnasts-our-there

It's linked to recent news:
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/gymnastics/53369831

Here was my original take on it in AIBU:

If it looks like a cult, walks like a cult, and talks like a cult...

I didn't do gymnastics but I did do ballet, and I'm afraid if was the same toxic culture of fetishisation of extreme thinness, and normalisation of (often self-inflicted) physical abuse.
"Now let's sit on you to help you do the splits. It's good pain, don't cry. Lift that leg higher. If it doesn't hurt you're doing it wrong. Tuck your tummy in. Don't forget to smile. Of course it's normal to have blood in your shoes, we all get blisters. No, she's not crying. Let's see how far we can bend your back. Oh was that a crack? Now don't be silly it doesn't hurt. Don't forget to smile. Etc."

More than the physical violence, it's the brainwashing... Eventually I switched to martial arts as it was less brutal. At least you were not expected to smile when you got hurt.

It really fucked my brains up, though. I'm so detached from physical pain, I can feel it very clearly, but I can't tell when my body has reached its limits. It's always "Yeah whatever, I'm fine, I'm fine... Whoops, I just collapsed, trip to A&E". And all the while I'm still poker faced or vaguely smiling, so medics are confused (you can imagine how well that all went when I was in labour...)

I think it's worth a proper feminist discussion, for a few reasons, such as:

• the fact pain is approached very differently in predominantly male sports (it's still viewed as "character building", but not something to be endured with a smile)
• the consequences this can have on women later in life, e.g. when facing labour (dissociation is not good...)
• the fact it conditions girls/women to just "take it on the chin" generally
• the fact this kind abuse is perpetuated not just be men, but by women as well (my ballet teacher was female), and there seems to be a sadistic component to it
• the way it's linked to very specific ideals of feminine beauty, and perpetuates the age old concept that "one must suffer to be beautiful"
• etc.

... Thoughts? (mine are a bit disorganised at the moment, because when I start unpacking them, it's just goes "This is literally ALL misogyny, EVER, in a neat little box with a tutu on top!", but I am triggered, so maybe jumping at shadows?)

I am not that familiar with the pain aspect- but I have heard horror stories of the ballet shoes. These sports are often equally driven by parents (unless you are in the very elite schools), at least where we live and the mums try to get their daughters into pointe shoes as early as possible, often against the teachers advice.

I have to say that boys are also expected to deal with pain and I have seen quite painful rugby and football injuries kind of brushed away with a “this happens, you feel better soon”.

I have a bigger problem with the extreme thinness required for ballet and gymnastics as I worry that it may trigger eating disorders. I have not seen any research on this, but heard enough stories and anecdotal evidence to steer my daughters well clear of it. If you are in a sport where they elite representatives have a body type which is incredibly difficult to obtain without extreme dieting and a genetic fluke, I doubt that is healthy for any competitive girl.

I've never understood why women have to dance on points in ballet. It's always reminded me of foot binding.

@CoffeeTeaChocolate

I have to say that boys are also expected to deal with pain and I have seen quite painful rugby and football injuries kind of brushed away with a “this happens, you feel better soon”.

I've done boys sports too (taekwondo, overwhelmingly male classes). There was an unhealthy, macho attitude to pain: toughening yourself up, grin and bear it, turn that pain into rage, etc.
But my point is it's really quite different: it's well known these male sports are brutal. The brutality is a "tough guy" badge of honour. If you can take it (and turn it into strength) you're badass.
There's no real equivalence with feminine disciplines such as ballet. These are seen by the average male (I have lots of male colleagues) as sissy not-even-sports. And if you listen to the older women who push children into this, it's all about grace and self-discipline, not strength. "Not grin and bear it", but "remember to keep smiling". It's about appearances. The physicality is denied. The pain is hidden. When I say, from first hand experience, that ballet is more brutal than martial arts, people think I'm joking. But I'm not.
I guess it just doesn't fit the general narrative around female bodies being weaker? (hard as nails, more like! but all the aggression is projected inwards)

@Imnobody4
I feel the same about most "fashionable" female shoes

I dislike the predominance of moves involving splayed legs of young girls in women’s gymnastics, with insistence on leotards instead of body suits. It’s overkill. It seems like there is a requirement to be “sassy” and that doesn’t seem appropriate in sport. Same goes for figure skating and so on. Ballet dancers were originally prostitutes.
It’s blatantly catering to the male gaze. I don’t have a daughter but wouldn’t encourage any young female into these activities except for as a recreational sport.
I have a friend that still has issues with food due to attending a residential ballet school when younger.

This is really interesting to think about, thank you for bringing it up. A former ballet student once told me about the history of dancing en pointe, which apparently became a thing when Marie Taglioni's father, something of a tyrant, basically decided that it would look more graceful. My understanding is that only women dance en pointe, and it is of course extremely brutal and painful and damaging to the feet. It sounded to me like the whole history of ballet is steeped in abusive practices. (Not to say it isn't wonderful to see and the dancers are extremely talented, athletic and brave.)

I mentioned this in the other post, but when my just turned 11 year old started her periods and had competitions coming up, I was told she had to wear just a leotard and would have to deal with it. As mentioned above, how degrading when certain moves involve splayed legs, especially on the bars.

The most painful aspect for me was at a mental/emotional level. How the abusive behaviour was carried out by "well meaning" older females, who were all smiles and grace and feminity themselves. And more than just a little bit bonkers (performing on stage despite obvious injuries, hurting themselves further, and expecting everybody else to do the same)
Note: that was a long time ago, and I'm sure not all ballet schools are the same.

But still... Whenever I hear "internalised misogyny", FGM, or "handmaid's aunts", I remember ballet.
My mum was livid when I told her I wanted to quit. And constantly despaired at my lack of feminity afterwards.

Interestingly there was one boy in our class. His outfit was tight, but far less revealing. He was fawned over by the instructor, and I'm fairly he never got sat on to "help" him do the splits.

Girls asked for years to be allowed to wear shorts when competing in gymnastics but this was always refused. Now it has been allowed to protect trans girls from embarrassment.
That tells you all need to know about how important girls' concerns are to the governing bodies of the sport compared to those of boys.

fairly sure

I'm not sure if the pain factor is really a feminist issue. It happens to boys as well. I remember seeing a child being stretched in a Chinese circus school, and it was brutal to watch. I know the same thing happens in professional wrestling as well, though that usually happens to older teenagers and adults.
My son learnt to do the splits in martial arts and it wasn't a painful process at all, just gradual loosening up. Their training was hard work and demanding and the kids were expected to reach the same standard as the adults but I don't think there was real pain involved, and some of the club were at world championship level.

I think it’s changed in recent years as dd has done ballet since she was 3 and pain is not something she has to work through.

If she has any pain, she has to stop so they can work out what is causing it and how they can remedy it

On pointe ballet is short spurts and not long periods of time where damage can occur to the feet

In her school, no one is allowed on pointe until they are 15

It’s blatantly catering to the male gaze

I see what you mean and sort of agree, but it conflicts with the reality that most men wouldn't go and see a ballet if you paid them.

That's so interesting that shorts can be allowed for trans girls. Not good enough to prevent humiliation for girls though.

@Imnobody4

I've never understood why women have to dance on points in ballet. It's always reminded me of foot binding.

It's what makes ballet look so beautiful.

The difficulty is part of the cachet. Dancing en pointe is tough but my goodness it looks sublime.

very interesting and disturbing.
I did a taster term ballet as child and hated it and was glad I could quit after. but I still blame it for back & posture issues.

my dc do other sports that are less extreme posture and attitude wise.

I find the narrative of pain in girls is often “don’t be such a drama queen”.

I did a taster term ballet as child and hated it and was glad I could quit after. but I still blame it for back & posture issues

How does one taster term affect your back and posture? Surely 6 weeks isn’t enough to a) learn anything too challenging and b) cause permanent changes.

I found ballet helped my posture enormously. In fact it was ballet exercises got me back on my feet after a spinal fracture.

I had a positive experience in ballet. It taught me flexibility, strength, body awareness and how to carry myself- ie posture. I did not find en pointe painful at all, but we were very limited in what we were allowed to do per age.

However gymnastics was a different matter.

I strongly believe that these issues aren’t inherent in the sport, it’s bad teaching/coaching.
If adults stop bullying kids they will have a better experience and end up better for it. Bully them and they quit before they reach their potential.

I always found ballet disturbing for this reason. It's supposed to be so graceful and feminine but I wince thinking of the pain the female dancer's feet.
Female gymnasts and figure skaters not being allowed modesty is also disturbing.

@feelingverylazytoday
That's the thing, I've done martial arts too, and as you said, it was a completely different approach to pain in training. The pain of being hit was to be expected, but not something to value, and something that could be avoided if you were good enough. Pain during stretches was also something to be avoided. It was a lot more respectful of people's bodies, their limits, and how to push them further without breaking them.
In comparison, ballet training was vicious, with an unhealthy disregard for potential injuries and personal comfort. Despite the young age of participants (under 10)

Why the difference? There may be something about stage performance (as opposed to sport performance) that drives people a bit crazy, and I guess I can affect males too (e.g. actors literally dying on stage because you just don't know where to stop, and you grow detached from your body, it becomes a tool)

But as a female... I do feel sometimes that my whole social life is a stage where I'm expected to perform feminity, no matter the personal cost to my own body and its comfort (e.g. painful female shoes causing blisters, painful plucking of unwanted hair, constraining outfits, etc.)
I don't bother with that social performance crap anymore, but surely these are feminist issues? And things like ballet feels like a boot camp of comformance to harmful gender roles.
(although there is probably also a social class aspect to it)

My friend who did ballet said she was forced to stop in her teens, by her teacher who simply told her she was too busty to be doing ballet... She did have huge boobs, and is considering a boob reduction. However, for her to be told this so bluntly by her teacher, as a 13 year old, I found quite shocking.

@bluebluezoo

I'm glad you had a positive experience of ballet. I believe it's very important for girls and women to realise the full potential of their bodies. It's liberating. But I fear the discipline sometimes attract bad actors. I mean really messed up people, with a mindset that reminds me of anorexia.

As an adult I now enjoy dancing for fun again, and yoga. But my days of ballet training almost ruined these things for me.

Mind you, I'm sure other physical disciplines have their bullies too. One of my martial art instructor was like that. But what strikes me is the violence there was a lot more direct (angry shouting). The ballet bullies were all smiles, very gaslighty, and that stung a lot deeper.

blueblue
we had the forced posturing as op described. plus injuries due to overstreching and falls.

and then not being able to rest and heal but being forced to carry on.

@Smallgoon
One of my friends was like yours. Lovely face, lovely body = too fat.

Ballet is... very strict. It has an ideal of perfection which it fetishises. Aesthetically that's lovely, but it's also a bit... body fascist?
People who don't fit the mold often move on to more tolerant forms of dancing, where all body types may find a place.

Note: my views are probably dated. But ballet is a very conservative discipline. I'm not sure it changes much (if it changed, would it still be ballet?)