Gymnastics/ballet/etc. and the routine abuse female bodies and minds

[Kaiserin]

TL;DR: Male pain is character building.
Female pain is natural, must be endured and never mentioned.

There's a thread in AIBU which was very triggering for me (and many others)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3964498-Any-former-gymnasts-or-parents-of-gymnasts-our-there

It's linked to recent news:
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/gymnastics/53369831

Here was my original take on it in AIBU:

If it looks like a cult, walks like a cult, and talks like a cult...

I didn't do gymnastics but I did do ballet, and I'm afraid if was the same toxic culture of fetishisation of extreme thinness, and normalisation of (often self-inflicted) physical abuse.
"Now let's sit on you to help you do the splits. It's good pain, don't cry. Lift that leg higher. If it doesn't hurt you're doing it wrong. Tuck your tummy in. Don't forget to smile. Of course it's normal to have blood in your shoes, we all get blisters. No, she's not crying. Let's see how far we can bend your back. Oh was that a crack? Now don't be silly it doesn't hurt. Don't forget to smile. Etc."

More than the physical violence, it's the brainwashing... Eventually I switched to martial arts as it was less brutal. At least you were not expected to smile when you got hurt.

It really fucked my brains up, though. I'm so detached from physical pain, I can feel it very clearly, but I can't tell when my body has reached its limits. It's always "Yeah whatever, I'm fine, I'm fine... Whoops, I just collapsed, trip to A&E". And all the while I'm still poker faced or vaguely smiling, so medics are confused (you can imagine how well that all went when I was in labour...)

I think it's worth a proper feminist discussion, for a few reasons, such as:

• the fact pain is approached very differently in predominantly male sports (it's still viewed as "character building", but not something to be endured with a smile)
• the consequences this can have on women later in life, e.g. when facing labour (dissociation is not good...)
• the fact it conditions girls/women to just "take it on the chin" generally
• the fact this kind abuse is perpetuated not just be men, but by women as well (my ballet teacher was female), and there seems to be a sadistic component to it
• the way it's linked to very specific ideals of feminine beauty, and perpetuates the age old concept that "one must suffer to be beautiful"
• etc.

... Thoughts? (mine are a bit disorganised at the moment, because when I start unpacking them, it's just goes "This is literally ALL misogyny, EVER, in a neat little box with a tutu on top!", but I am triggered, so maybe jumping at shadows?)

I have to say that I do have issues with any sport where teen girls have to wax their bikini lines because of the costume requirements....and any sport where it is not possible to wear a properly fitted sports bra without getting deductions if a strap Shows (trampolining I’m looking at you)...and actually any sport where the costume requirements are different for men/women for anything other than obvious reasons...why can men run in long shorts but women are expected to be in bikini length ones? Why can male gymnasts wear shorts/trousers and women are in sparkly leotards?

why can men run in long shorts but women are expected to be in bikini length ones?

Some of it is choice. If you’re talking athletics back in my day long or loose shorts were normal.

Gymnastics to be fair, I believe FIG ruling is that long leggings or shorts can be worn in competition. I’ve seen it don on a recreational and moderately competitive level.

The pressure comes from clubs, who often have rules on what can and can’t be worn. I’ve never been international standard but I assume GB would have the same rules, don’t comply, off the squad. Also psychological, if a certain dress code is “standard”, then you feel like you stand out negatively, even if you’re not directly penalised.

Back to athletics, again psychologically you may “feel” faster in tight bikini style bottoms rather than feeling the drag of looser ones.

Personally i feel there’s too much pressure on women societally to wax bikini lines. Most women wear bikini’s to the pool, even when they have a choice.

I find this a really interesting topic. I do think there are some differences between male and female but I'm not sure how stark they are.

For example, IME boys in ballet or gymnastics are taught the same way as girls are in terms of being told some pain is normal, and I think the same is true for gild and boys in something like football or hockey. And I think in all of them, the idea that pain was good used to be more common, and now there is a lot more care around that kind of statement (but I am going to contradict that in a monent**).

But different kinds of sports do have different cultures and coaching etc improves often depending on the group that administers the sport. Also wonder about the extent to which different sports do differ - there are different kinds of pain.

What I have noticed as a general trend in sports, and some sports especially that have a certain kind of cachet, is a real intensification of training, with an expectation that injury and degeneration of the body is, in the long term, normal. It seems to have come down from the top, elite sports, as the human body is pushed more and more with "scientific" types of training. People accept that if you want to do certain sports in the Olympics, for example, you will have ruined knees by the time you hit 40, or sooner. It's worth it in pursuit of excellence, even noble.

Kids sports in many cases seem designed to feed the children onto that path of elite sports, and people seem comfortable with a similar attitude to training - it was ok to really push the body but also things like time commitment that mean kids have to really invest in that one activity. There is a lot of emphasis on developing each person to "reach their potential" as the goal in many sports. It's not clear where it becomes wrong to push boundaries that could harm the body. I saw an interview with a retired tennis champion once, and the interviewer asked her what the biggest change she has seen in coaching and training, and she said - the level and number of injuries.

I'm not sure what happens between that attitude on the one hand, but increasing awareness of things like concussion etc in football or rugby on the other.

This emphasis on elevated performance is especially notable in the sports where the athletes peak young, so you have quite young girls in gymnastics, for example, who have no real ability to conceptualise the trade-offs of that kind of training, and have been spending huge amounts of their life on it since they were tiny. None of them are asking, do I want to deal with the ramifications of this for the rest of my life?

When the scandals over that doctor abusing the girls at that gymnastics school in the US came out, what really shocked me more than the abuse is that all these girls, who were pre-teens and young teens, had serious, ongoing injuries to their backs etc that required seeing a doctor to deal with. And that was seen as normal, just part of the training. I don't think that was something the doctor faked for his own benefit - the expectation was already there that this is ok and normal, for a healthy 12 year old to have a chronic back injury that would never go away.

Boys seem to develop their peak athleticism a little later, which might be protective a bit, they are older when they are dealing with these problems.

This emphasis on elevated performance is especially notable in the sports where the athletes peak young, so you have quite young girls in gymnastics,

Thing is, there’s absolutely no evidence that girls do peak young.

IMO they “peak young” because the intensity of the training means they are simply broken far too early. Like pp said, training with stress fractures and chronic injuries is normal. They just get to the point where they are so injured they can’t go on.

The ones at the olympics are the ones lucky enough not to break on the way.

There is a 45 year old gymnast still winning world medals. Lisa Mason attempted a comeback for 2012 (i think?), won british champs. Beckie Downie is in her 30’s and will likely be in the tram next year.

Simone biles is 23 and will easily win the olympics if it happens next year. Over all the little 15 and 16 year olds.

If they went slower, aimed to peak at 20 rather than 14, fewer injuries, and gymnasts could do two or 3, even more olympics, like any other sport.

Boys gymastics, you are still seen as junior until much later. Which is probably why our boys are much more successful despite far fewer doing it...

Yes, I mean I think part of this idea is related to what is seen as popular in the sport. You can see how the trend to younger gymnasts developed, and then they began pushing younger girls to try and have that same very youthful body type that you just don't see in adults, which is flexible and very light.

The trend could go the other way too. Older athletes have more time to develop their skills, too, which is an advantage.

But you probably won't see that kind of trend to very young competitors in a sport like sprinting or wrestling, because the nature of the sport demands a certain amount of power and height is a factor too, so those things need time to develop fully and can't be hurried. There is less room for influence about the aesthetics to influence judges.

Even in gymnastics or skating, the aesthetic for men seems more focused on power.

I tend to think that maybe they need to have a minimum age for some things, based on what is safe developmentally in terms of training. And possibly psychologically though that could be tricker.

I've always found ballet a bit weird, for all the reasons you've mentioned, OP. There is a particular sadism in it, yes.

I was VERY glad that my daughter, who had a brief enthusiasm aged 4, tried one class and hated it. She spent the whole hour lying on the floor crying. I was secretly relieved afterwards when I could tell her that we never had to come back.

the other thing - true for most 'elite' sports is that they are all consuming. not allowing other sports or hobbies. and allowing academic progress to play second fiddle, which is concerning when you have short careers at best.

My husband and I (in our 40s) are involved in long distance and endurance running. This is a sport where, even to an amateur, pain, injuries and exercise to excess are routinely glorified.

So I would question pain in sport being a feminist issue. But do concede that age is a factor though, and can be seen as abusive. While I don't mind running through the pain, I'd stop my child going the same.

I find myself torn over the whole idea of elite sports.

On the one hand, the idea of a few really gifted and determined people pushing to achieve in sport has some appeal.

On the other hand, it's almost completely unrelated to what I think sports should be more generally - a way for regular people to get exercise, and enjoy competition, the outdoors, socialising, throughout their lives. (not necessarily all of them for every sport.)

Even the health level which a lot of people think is the most basic thing about sport - while elite athletes in some ways are in peak condition, in others they are worse off as they may well be training and competing to the point of damaging their bodies. That's not really what we want for the population generally. I'm not sure it really adds to elite sports either.

The professionalisation and big money in sport has been part of all this. Once amateur sport began to include people who were being supported through the state or corporations to train full time, which began back in the Cold War, pushing the body became possible in a new way, and the tech started to really ramp up too. On some ways I think it might be worse outside of actual professional sports organisations that employ people, like the NHL, as they at least have a obligation to safety as an employer and legislation around that.

DD2 gave up ballet reluctantly aged 9 because school and classes didn't mesh, but 20+ years later still has pain from the foot her (female) teacher seized and twisted to demonstrate the amount of turnout required... Needless to say, she never uttered a squeak or a word to her highly-regarded teacher or even her parents for years afterwards. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Thankfully DD didn't get on with gymnastics as it's a sport I don't feel comfortable with for various reasons. DD watches the CBBC show about the gymnasts and she commented about how high cut the leotards are.
She does do ballet (and contemporary) but where she goes they don't do exams. Obviously they're taught the correct moves etc and they do an annual show but the kids are all shapes and sizes. The only en pointe dancers are the older ones well in their teens. I like how there's no unnecessary pressure.

Fascinating post, OP. Think you're right. I remember when we had to buy a particular ballet skirt for DD, looking in the catalogue and there was a picture showing dancers trying on shoes - their feet looked absolutely hideous and mis-shapen. DD was en pointe for a while but it was incredibly hard and, like you say, the teacher kept minimising the pain.

Read Little Girls in Pretty Boxes if you haven’t already
The Karolyis exported some of these extreme coaching styles to the US and I think the U.K. picked up on it as it got the required results. Some Romanian ex-gymnasts later spoke out about the cruelty in the system -Ecaterina Szabo and Emilia Eberle for instance; look at the women’s (lol at women’s) team Romania took to the ‘79 worlds, they looked anorexic. This was not long before the Karolyis defected to the US

I'm so sorry to read your experiences, particularly in ballet. I'm a feminist and a ballet teacher. Definitely agree that the aesthetic of ballet is very specific, at the loss of some amazing dancers. Did my dissertation on that actually. I think it is getting better to a degree. Obviously they all need to be extremely fit and relatively light in order to be lifted in the pas de deux but definitely seeing more professional woman with boobs nowadays, particularly at English National Ballet.

Don't know how many people have heard of Balanchine but he was a renowned choreographer who had a very specific aesthetic he wanted for his dancers and that fed into some very unhealthy attitudes worldwide. My teacher at college was a Royal Ballet soloist and was constantly told she was too fat and developed bulimia :-(

I do think attitudes generally have got better - most dance schools have counsellors nowadays and I've been told that at the Royal Ballet School, they weigh students to prevent weight loss rather than weight gain. If a student loses weight initially then they just keep an eye on them but if they've lost weight at the next session then they get taken off dancing until they've regained it. It's still a risk due to the type of girls who generally excel at ballet, e.g. perfectionists.

There are still some dinosaurs around who cling to the idea you have to scream at students to get results but they are decreasing in my experience. At the school I run we have students of all shapes and sizes and I make a point, when I'm trying to get them to use their core muscles, that it's not about the size of stomach but strength and the need to engage their core for correct alignment. I also let them wear leggings, shorts and cover ups over their leotards, they need to fit quite snugly as you can't see if someone is working correctly in baggy clothes but it helps the girls feel more comfortable as they go through puberty. My predecessor had them in these ridiculous strappy leotards and wouldn't let the girls wear bras underneath so I stopped all that and swapped them to one with nice thick straps so they can all wear bras if they want.

Ooh and pointe work, all my students have to attend conditioning classes for at least a year in addition to their normal ballet classes in order to strengthen their muscles for pointe. And normally 13 is the youngest they get shoes and only then if they're ready. It shouldn't damage the feet if a student is strong enough and shoes are fitted correctly. Often shoes are fitted too wide and so a students slams down inside them, putting way too much pressure on their toes. My first shoes were like that and I found it excruciating but I now know a fabulous fitter who I take all my students to and it's revolutionary. I also wasn't allowed to wear padding inside my shoes when I was training but I let all my girls use as much padding as is comfortable for them. If pointe is horrendous for the dancer then they won't be able to dance well and something is wrong.

Sorry that was a massive essay on ballet but I just wanted to say that nice ballet schools are out there and please don't think that we're all the same. I really care for my students physically and emotionally.

My DD's did ballet through primary. I remember being horrified by the no knickers rule for exams.

Surely the marks should be for dancing.

The three women I know with eating and body image problems studied ballet and worked in it professionally. Definitely worthy of feminist discussion.
I also know men with problems from rugby injuries and concussions from (private) school sport at elite level. Schools which charge fees still do trade on their pupils’ excellence now of course, but I’d like to think these institutions are much more child-centred these days. Also hopefully parents paying fees will be more enquiring of the treatment by a school that it takes to produce results at that level from a child. I feel that with the emphasis on academics at most school things may have changed but I may be wrong, I don’t know anyone at those kinds of schools in this generation.

My DD's did ballet through primary. I remember being horrified by the no knickers rule for exams

Why horrified?

That’s fairly standard. If their leotard fits well there are no modesty issues- although we often have to be fairly strict with parents who don’t understand it needs to fit like a second skin, and they stretch significantly, so you really don’t need to buy three sizes too big for them to grow into..

If you allow knickers you wouldn’t believe what some kids turn up in. I’ve seen boy shorts worn under leotards, or cheap baggy high waists, which look uncomfortable as well as unsightly. Plus the kids are more likely to reach behind and pull out a big handful of scrunched up cotton.

It looks uncomfortable, and makes them look scruffy- even if you’re only judging the dance, subconsciously you’re thinking what a mess..

Older kids can be guided to nude high legs or special undergarments. It’s actually easier for the littler ones not to have them.

Anyway the issues in gymnastics isn’t about what they wear. It’s about the systematic bullying and humiliation of young kids, making them train on injuries and the NGB complicit in the abuse.

The clothes aren’t the issue.

My DD's did ballet through primary. I remember being horrified by the no knickers rule for exams.

Surely the marks should be for dancing.

It’s just so unnecessary to have the splayed legs and leotards. There are plenty of newer sports like snowboarding, skateboarding, parkour etc. where there are breathtaking tricks performed requiring bravery, strength and accuracy but no need for tight clothing and focus on the genital area.

There’s such a stark contrast between the way that the men and women (only very young women deemed acceptable) are being treated and judged in these older disciplines and I feel it is all to do with the male gaze.

I have watched Athlete A. I highly recommend it if you haven’t watched it already. There are three general problem areas highlighted.

1. The emotional and physical abuse the girls received from the Karolyis as part of their training and the physical and mental toll of that.

2. The abuse of Nassar himself.

3. The complete failure of USA Gymnastics to safeguard the girls from 1 and 2 and their failure to deal with it when it came to light.

The physical abuse was key to Nassar sexually abusing the girls for three reasons. Firstly it normalised pain and injury and meant that trips to the doctor were essential and seen as just part of being a gymnast. Second, the injuries were so persistent and with so much riding on it, the girls had no choice but to accept the “treatment” being given by Nassar because they thought that if they didn’t their careers would be over.

And finally, most importantly, many of the women report that Nassar was the only one who was nice to them. The culture of physical and emotional abuse was ripe for exploitation by a predator like him. He gave them food, didn’t shout, comforted them. It was classic predatory behaviour and those poor women and girls suffered as a result.

It needs to stop. If this is what it takes to be an elite gymnast then elite gymnastics needs to stop, or significantly change. If coaches inflict this on girls then they need to be reported. If nothing changes, the sport should be abandoned.

I don't think this is a feminist issue as such, because it affects girls and boys equally.

The whole Machi football side. And other sports.
Gymnastics and ballet makes my skin creep. Especially stories of abuse, the female coach of the USA gymnastics team for example. Yuk!

The clothes aren’t the issue.

I'm not sure that's true. I did a lot of gymnastics as a child and remember feeling uncomfortable wearing leotards because your legs are splayed all the time. To be honest I think I'd feel the same now.

I was very thin as a teenager and I've only just realised, after reading this thread, how much the gymnastics was a part of that. There is only one acceptable aesthetic in gymnastics and it's petite with no boobs or hips. The earliest memory I have of me and the "gym girls" weighing each other was when we were 9 years old. That's mad isn't it.

all KaptainKaveman Sat 11-Jul-20 13:17:27
Imnobody4
I've never understood why women have to dance on points in ballet. It's always reminded me of foot binding.
It's what makes ballet look so beautiful.

The difficulty is part of the cachet. Dancing en pointe is tough but my goodness it looks sublime.

^^

Not for me — it makes me feel sick imagining the pain they must be in

My DD did ballet from 3-14 and I have to say that I was glad when she decided to give up on her own accord. The pointe was worse. It was brutal. Plus all the girls struggled with the uniform: pale pink tights and leotard, when they started periods I don't know how they managed. Nothing was hidden. It all seem very antiquated.

I did ballet, too, and I can't say the pain bothered me. It sure was tougher to play soccer with the boys, where I learned 'not to show when it hurt', just like they swept their pain aside. So I don't feel this pain aspect is a particularly 'female issue'.

What I do think, though, is that ballet is ridiculously weight obsessed, 'fat shaming' perfectly athletic and even outright thin (!) girls - a recipe for giving girls eating disorders. (I think I once read that even male dancers are often anorectic. But I have the impression that this is confined to professional male dancers, while every female hobby ballet dancer will get a taste of the fat-shaming treatment).