Gymnastics/ballet/etc. and the routine abuse female bodies and minds

[Kaiserin]

TL;DR: Male pain is character building.
Female pain is natural, must be endured and never mentioned.

There's a thread in AIBU which was very triggering for me (and many others)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3964498-Any-former-gymnasts-or-parents-of-gymnasts-our-there

It's linked to recent news:
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/gymnastics/53369831

Here was my original take on it in AIBU:

If it looks like a cult, walks like a cult, and talks like a cult...

I didn't do gymnastics but I did do ballet, and I'm afraid if was the same toxic culture of fetishisation of extreme thinness, and normalisation of (often self-inflicted) physical abuse.
"Now let's sit on you to help you do the splits. It's good pain, don't cry. Lift that leg higher. If it doesn't hurt you're doing it wrong. Tuck your tummy in. Don't forget to smile. Of course it's normal to have blood in your shoes, we all get blisters. No, she's not crying. Let's see how far we can bend your back. Oh was that a crack? Now don't be silly it doesn't hurt. Don't forget to smile. Etc."

More than the physical violence, it's the brainwashing... Eventually I switched to martial arts as it was less brutal. At least you were not expected to smile when you got hurt.

It really fucked my brains up, though. I'm so detached from physical pain, I can feel it very clearly, but I can't tell when my body has reached its limits. It's always "Yeah whatever, I'm fine, I'm fine... Whoops, I just collapsed, trip to A&E". And all the while I'm still poker faced or vaguely smiling, so medics are confused (you can imagine how well that all went when I was in labour...)

I think it's worth a proper feminist discussion, for a few reasons, such as:

• the fact pain is approached very differently in predominantly male sports (it's still viewed as "character building", but not something to be endured with a smile)
• the consequences this can have on women later in life, e.g. when facing labour (dissociation is not good...)
• the fact it conditions girls/women to just "take it on the chin" generally
• the fact this kind abuse is perpetuated not just be men, but by women as well (my ballet teacher was female), and there seems to be a sadistic component to it
• the way it's linked to very specific ideals of feminine beauty, and perpetuates the age old concept that "one must suffer to be beautiful"
• etc.

... Thoughts? (mine are a bit disorganised at the moment, because when I start unpacking them, it's just goes "This is literally ALL misogyny, EVER, in a neat little box with a tutu on top!", but I am triggered, so maybe jumping at shadows?)

I understand Michael Gove and Sarah Vine withdrew their daughter from ballet classes after a concern about pressure re weight. I hope they could use their experience to campaign within government about this issue. The arts receive quite rightly in my opinion lots of funding from government, and this could be used to ensure this issue is taken seriously and processes/actions put in place.

When my niece did ballet , she was told that for her advanced exams be prepared not to receive such high marks as another girl despite both of them being on an equal part. Her teacher told her that points would be given to the other dancer be wise she had a ‘ballet body’ and my niece did not
My niece is stunning but has hips and breasts.
Sure enough the other girl got higher marks.

Which exam board was this and when? RAD & ISTD have nothing in their marking criteria about body shape. I have known many larger girls, including dd post puberty, receive very high marks for exams.

@DianasLasso

I've been watching this thread with interest. Back when he was very small, DS went to the local gymnastic club, and I think could have been quite good. But when he turned three (yes, three, you read that right) they had a club policy that parents weren't allowed to sit at the side of the class any more. I felt that was way too young - but interestingly, whenever I've mentioned this on, say, AIBU threads on here, the consensus from parents with children seriously into gymnastics seems to be "but it's perfectly reasonable to chuck parents out - otherwise the kids won't concentrate and will always be running to mummy for reassurance."

I still think at three years old, running to mummy for reassurance is sodding normal, and it says something about the weird way the culture of gymnastics is set up that the parents get groomed into thinking otherwise. Also I felt it was a massive safeguarding red flag (but maybe that's because I'd already read Little Girls in Pretty Boxes which was mentioned upthread - it's an excellent book). I just had this very strong gut feeling that a club which wanted parental supervision out of the way wasn't on the level. (Not suggesting CSA, just bullying coaching techniques are much more likely with that sort of attitude).

I think this is a both and thing.

I think the desire of parents to watch classes for kids this age is totally reasonable. But as a teacher, kids are often far more focused, better behaved, and enjoy it more if the parent is not there. Not all, but a substantial number.

The more workable solutions I've seen have the arrangement so the parents can see the children, but the kids can't so easily see the parents. So maybe the parents stay out of the dance studio but the doors are glass and they can sit outside. Or the gym has a balcony for the parents to look down on. That kind of thing.

@Comefromaway

Goose - the Bolshoi give their female dancers days off when they are menstruating.

Dd never had pain from pointe. A lot is to do with having the right shoes.

Oh, that's interesting. It makes a lot of sense to me.

I gave up all the sports I did as a young teen, mainly because I had such heavy periods. A tampon alone was never enough. And there was no expectation that you could sit out, much less miss a meet or a performance!

While I guess girls at one time felt sidelined by having to sit out during menstruation, or even the idea that you could, for girls like me I think it was the opposite, the idea that it wasn't significant meant that you couldn't participate at all. Like your problem wasn't real or you just were too wimpy to cope. I found it really embarrassing and even shaming.

Ballet gave dd1 a huge feminist consciousness and taught her fantastic things about how powerful her body is. She learned without doubt about ‘performing femininity’ and artifice, about how something can look delicate and graceful but be fucking nails in terms of sheer strength and power. It taught her determination, dedication and discipline (not bodily) and how to work to achieve her goals. It taught her the difference between artifice and reality.
Her first ballet teacher was a size 22. She has always studied at schools with a huge variety in body shape and an ethos that what your body can do is more important that what it looks like. (We moved a lot - she’s been to at least six or seven different schools and I haven’t experienced any that even mentioned weight or diet.) We did look very carefully though.
Ballet (dance as a whole really) has been an amazingly positive influence in terms of allowing her to viscerally experience the power of her body while getting a first hand insight into how femininity should ‘look’.
She’s had one injury in 14 years of dance (discomfort in one Achilles’ tendon) and danced en pointe for 6 years. Through dance she’s explored themes of domestic violence, control, imprisonment, difference and empowerment. She learned to manage four or five hours of dance a day with study, and a number of other extra-curriculars, with no intention of a dance career. She’s just finished third year micro-bio. Goes to dance for fun because she loves to feel her body working and to perform.
On a related note - I work at an arts institution and the dancers eat like horses. This is about fuel for power. These are not delicate waifs starving themselves and ruining their bodies in the name of their art. These are powerful, muscle bound humans working their bodies with massive calorific needs.
As an aside - dd rarely wears make-up (the faff of stage make-up really underlines the ‘for show’ aspect of face painting) and still eats like a horse.
Dd2 also took RAD exams. She started dance classes before she could stand unsupported as she has cerebral palsy. It’s great physio, works all the muscle groups, and really helped with proprioception. She stopped as she entered her teens (to get the same benefit she would have been dancing with children much younger - as someone physically but not learning disabled, she decided to focus more on her other sports).

Ballet, the ballet body, the influence of teachers (for good or ill) and the risk of eating disorders etc are all things I’ve thought a lot about over the last few years. It’s been interesting to read this discussion.

Mostly, I find two views - the ‘ballet is awful and all serious dancers risk eating disorders’ and ‘it’s wonderful and gives amazing strength, discipline and ability to perform’. I’m somewhere in the middle.

I do think it really all comes down to the teacher. Dd went on pointe last autumn (age 11) very slowly through the autumn term and is only now doing all of the IF pointe work. No pain, no blisters, one slightly cracked nail (until she learned about toe socks). BUT, her ballet teacher took her to the shop for her first shoe fitting, made sure she and the fitter and dd were all happy with the fit, and carries on doing that for all her dancers until she and they are confident they know what they need in terms of pointe shoes. From what I’ve heard locally, this isn’t the usual approach.

Similarly, dd’s teacher will often allow skirts / shorts / tops in class and doesn’t press for their removal if a girl doesn’t want to. I’ve overheard one girl saying she’d forgotten to shave her armpits and being told it was fine to keep her top on for that lesson. But at dd’s previous dance school, that would have been a chance for humiliation by being forced to remove it.

Still, I find it uncomfortable to know that they do have to shave their armpits for exams, that all exams mean wearing skin tight leotard and tights in front of strangers, that make up is required for shows with no excuses (thought it has made my dd hate make up, and not want to wear it any other time, which I’m happy with). I am uncomfortable knowing there is a ‘ballet body’, and that dd is unlikely to have it post puberty and that will limit her opportunities. I am very uncomfortable knowing that one vocational school damaged at least two of dd’s friends (injuries where the effects lasted for months or even years) by over-stretching them at auditions for Y7.

However, I’m not sure how much of this relates to her as a girl, and how much to the ease with which teachers / coaches can misuse their power. It feels very unaccountable, and with no transparency. I think dd is (now) in safe hands. But I have no true way of knowing.

You don't have to have anything in your marking scheme though do you?
It's called unconscious bias and it does exist.
The exam board was ISTD and it is recently.
It is like denying that unconscious bias exist in applicant selections for jobs.
Post after post on here saying they consider if a name would pass the high court judge test..
Northern ballet do score their students in physical appearance, that isn't what the section is called, but that is what it is.I'm friends with a parent whose dd attends. It's all well and good if you have an athletic, androgynous body type, not so good if you dont.
I love ballet by the way. I also enjoy gymnastics but im not going to deny that this prejudice exists.

Body shape is a definite thing in professional training so I would expect it at Northern (Leeds or Manchester). My dd’s school took several young people assessed out of RBS & Elm.

I wouldn’t expect it and haven’t experienced it as local dance school level. It should not happen at exam level. That’s wrong and something should be done about it if it’s still happening.

As I said earlier. The teachers we’ve had this attitude from are luckily no longer teaching.

About body shape - it is an aesthetic, OTOH, lots of sports do favour certain body types. Often young people do end up having to accept that they will be limited in a sport - I mean, most will in the end, few go to the top in any sport type endeavour.

It's not so much the limit as trying to overcome it through unhealthy means.

lots of sports do favour certain body types.

which is usually do to physical advantages. long legs can jumps longer, a lot of body mass so you don't go flying instead of your discus.

@bluefoxmug

lots of sports do favour certain body types.

which is usually do to physical advantages. long legs can jumps longer, a lot of body mass so you don't go flying instead of your discus.

Yes.

People do sometimes try and manipulate their weight etc for advantage though. Boxing for example. And overtraining is not uncommon.

But my point was really just that many people are limited in some pass-time due to body type and we just live with it. It's not that which is the problem.

But it’s not about whether they are limited in their ability due to body type (if you are too short to play basketball for example), it’s about whether they are judged differently regardless of how well they do the moves because of their body type. I’ve taken part in various judges sports and I guarantee that if you put my skeleton (size 16) in the same position as that of someone size 8 they would get better marks because their arms and legs would look straighter and longer and neater. And that’s where the body type is an issue...in the judges eyes.

@PetraDelphiki

But it’s not about whether they are limited in their ability due to body type (if you are too short to play basketball for example), it’s about whether they are judged differently regardless of how well they do the moves because of their body type. I’ve taken part in various judges sports and I guarantee that if you put my skeleton (size 16) in the same position as that of someone size 8 they would get better marks because their arms and legs would look straighter and longer and neater. And that’s where the body type is an issue...in the judges eyes.

Yes. But the goal in all is sort of arbitrary. Get the ball farther. Jump higher. Look elegant (whatever that means.) The standard, the rules, sre defined by someone.

It really is just like if you are not tall enough to play basketball, or not the best body shape for the ballet aethetic. You can say, well the aesthetc could change, or you could group basketball divisions by height, a bit like boxing. Maybe one day we will.

The fact is though we all have to deal with the fact that nature has given each of us limits, we have things we won't be the best at.

But there is a huge difference between your body physically not doing it as well as someone else (higher/faster/stronger) and being limited because of the aesthetic view which then carries over to bikini waxing, costume design etc. The first is just down to you - the other is societies expectations only.

I remember my DD doing her first ballet exam aged about 5. The absolute dragon of a ballet teacher did the girls' hair for them. She was horrible to all the girls, except DD. DD has poker-straight hair, classic "ballet dancer" hair. She made comments on what "lovely hair" DD had, having complained about everyone else's. DD was no better or worse a dancer than any of the others.

I see the point about other sports but I'm not sure it's quite the same.
If you score a goal in football you score a goal, and off.
There isn't a 'male' sport which criticises/frowns upon males with developed masculine bodies the same as sport does with females.
For example the clothing worn in male gymnastics isn't so tight/skimpy/revealing etc that boys and men with an average or big penis can't compete. Women and girls in ballet and gymnastics are encouraged to be as young as possible puberty is a disadvantage, the same can't be said of the make sport.
Of course certain sports favour different physical attributes but players such as Messi have succeeded despite not having the typical physical attributes. The same is not true of ballerinas. None of the top ones ever have different physical attributes. Not one of them could be described as curvy, they just don't get chosen.

I agree there is a ballet type body especially at professional level.

Thinking re post on men jockeys for men have restrictions

That’s great that your DDs had good experiences, madwoman1ntheattic.

Idk, I'm very into figure skating. Dd1 wasn't interested, but I've got my hooks into Dd2. It's, imo, one of the most gender equal sports. Boys wear tight, dorky costumes, skate to dorky music, and get a right beating in training too. But on twitter we are actually having a conversation right now about one of the former male students of one of the top coaches, and how he suffered career ending spinal fractures at a competition a few years ago as a 16 year old because -despite waking up that morning unable to lift his arms over his head, constantly getting off the ice to vomit through pre-comp practice, and needing five shots of morphine in the 48 hours leading up to the competition- his coach ignored medical advice to pull him and forced him to skate so people didn't lose out on the money they had paid to watch him skate that day.

I think you'll find in these early specialisation sports that the problem has more to do with the fact that the athletes are children than it being a gender issue. In gymnastics it's just more prevelent because the females peak in their late teens while males peek in early 20's. In figure skating where boys and girls both peek early the gender difference really isn't that noticable.