Black birthing people

[OverMoon]

I’ve just seen a post on instagram stating that “Black birthing people are still dying”. I had to do a double-take. Birthing people?

Black women dying in childbirth at a higher rate that women from other backgrounds is obviously a huge issue in the UK that needs attention, and thankfully seems to be gaining more attention recently. But how is it helpful to use language that makes literally no sense!?

A quick twitter search of “black birthing people” shows that lots of other people are using this phrase too.

I am genuinely not against trans inclusivity where it makes sense, but how many trans men choose to get pregnant and give birth? Given they have gender dysphoria and are usually on hormones that would preclude that. Surely the numbers must be vanishingly small?

Doesn’t saying “black birthing people” ignore the fact that it is BLACK WOMEN, a doubly marginalised group, who are affected by this issue? It is misogyny and racism that is causing this. But we can’t say women?

What’s a “birthing person”!? The instagram post features the sentence “The energy you’re given to George Floyd, give to Black Birthing people too”. Am I the only one that finds this so untruthful and distracting from the real issue?

Corsicana
Alas, newly qualified midwives are full of the birthing person language but one did confirm that they (see what I did there) would adjust their language to suit any woman who Identified as a woman. HTH.

I thought we had a thread recently about the risk of black mothers dying in the UK.

The risks did not appear to be correlated so much with skin colour as with specific nationalities or national heritage.

I can't find the thread but the risk as I recall it was increased among mothers who were not born in the UK and who were from particular countries.

Leaping to the conclusion of institutional racism is not necessarily helpful.

Oh and for anyone confused that discussion seems to relate to the relevance of cervical dilatation. Apparently the numbers are arbitrary and subjective.

Now I do understand there's a discussion about use of the term "failure to progress" for instance (making women feel they have failed) but I really hope there are still people around who can diagnose it or there will be a lot of interesting court cases to come.

Midwife literally means with woman, are they changing to with person? @Antibles whilst some research indicates that, there are fundamentals in this country that do mean that black women (and others who are not caucasian) don't always receive the same standard of care. Not pregnancy related as a lot of issues which show on the skin aren't as well known. But take meningitis for example, most of us know that the rash is a tell tale sign and to do the glass test. How do you think a rash shows on black skin? And HCPs aren't taught what it looks like, there aren't education campaigns either. Same in a midwife degree, people aren't taught how certain conditions present on skin other than Caucasian, because it's not part of the syllabus and not covered. That does have affects on the level of care, and some studies have also shown that people are not taken as seriously, and left in pain for longer than others. There definitely needs to be more inclusivity in the education of HCPs so there stands a chance of being equal access to care.

@FannyCann

Oh grim AnotherEmma If you are going to be using the services I would be bitterly complaining and insisting on my chosen words being used. Any midwife that called me a birthing person or mentioned chest feeding would get a flea in the ear and sent packing.

To be fair, no midwife has actually called me that to my face - I don't think they would. It's in all the written communications on the Facebook page, which there have been a lot of due to coronavirus and all the changes to services. I just find it stressful enough to have maternity services and choices reduced so drastically, let alone being called a "birthing person" to boot! I do think it will be limited to the official comms and no one will actually use it to my face - I hope I'm right. If they do I will challenge it.

Sorry I'm derailing slightly as this thread is specifically about black pregnant women. I would be very interested to hear how black and ethnic minority women feel about being referred to as pregnant people. I find it strange that the words we use to describe skin colour have often been taboo or controversial or used as insults, and the words are chosen carefully ("people of color" in the US for example) but it's apparently more acceptable to use the word "black" than the word "woman", now

I've just checked, and we're still women at my local maternity unit. Not holding my breath though....

Glad to see this campaign using the words black women.

@FannyCann

Corsicana Alas, newly qualified midwives are full of the birthing person language but one did confirm that they (see what I did there) would adjust their language to suit any woman who Identified as a woman. HTH.

It’s not just NQMs - the first screenshot you have there is a retired midwife (Jenny).

So if a person comes in for their ante natal appt, the convo will go

Hello, ms brown, can I call you Jane?

Yes that's fine

What gender do you identify with?

Huh?

I need to understand what pronouns to use

Huh?

Does your internal gender identity accord with your sex as assigned at birth? Do you identify as non binary?

Erm

Etc etc

No in real life a it will be business as usual I'm sure

Ordinary people don't understand this

The idea that a midwife might need to have this conversation with a bog standard UK woman let alone a woman with a less good grasp of English etc is not good. It will eat into time where they check you over, have a quiet chat about family situation (DV etc) and all that stuff.

Thing is they can't not do it as with self id and non binary etc they can't make any assumptions based on 'presentation'.

Another thing is that the NHS policy has (quietly) been for years to have single sex wards that are actually based on gender.

So where would a trans man go?

The tra people are constantly showing pics of trans men who 'pass' and saying do you really want this person in the ladies? By their logic a post natal trans man should be on a male ward.

They haven't really thought this through have they.

The whole thing is/ was hingeing on the numbers being so small that case by case would work.

But with policy and safeguarding and risk assessment you don't say oh well it's hardly anyone it won't matter. You say, how will this work in practice, what are the considerations etc

This just doesn't happen and it's just basis stuff.

I had also totally misunderstood what this thread was going be about (I assumed that it would be about birth attendants for women giving birth, and thought it was a strange turn of phrase even for that).
Making up new language is inherently noninclusive. because it creates an in-group who understand it, and an out- group who don’t: That’s how slang works.
In healthcare creating an ‘out group’ of the group who the service is aimed at is clearly at odds with the meeting the needs of service users.

@AnotherEmma. I wish that people would challenge it anyway even if stuff has only been on FB pages,etc. Complain that this is erasing women.....surely maternity services should be the last to do this! If enough woman push back they may rethink.

I did reply and challenge one of the posts but was contradicted by an overwhelming majority. Lots of shocked emoji reactions to my comment and gushing replies about how great it is to be inclusive. Luckily the admin of the page did actually acknowledge my pov and didn't dismiss me outright like the others. But it is actually very difficult to stick your neck out for fear of people thinking you're transphobic; there are people I know who follow the page, may well have seen the comments and probably disagree with me.

"Complain that this is erasing women.....surely maternity services should be the last to do this!"
Well no, that's the point, they're doing it, and that's why it's so upsetting - maternity services erasing women, it's unbelievable - but that's what they're doing with the language they're using.

Some midwives have no problem using language which excludes a minority group when that group is disabled people. They still talk about normal birth. I was told I shouldn’t have gone to the birth centre (not accessible) because it was for normal people.

How often do midwives see a pregnant man? It is so rare as to be newsworthy.

😱 that's awful. I'm sorry a midwife talked to you like that.

That's terrible @Siablue, when they refer to 'normal' births that insensitive enough, but refer to you, as a person in that manner is disgusting. I hope you complain to PALS if you feel able.

I don’t think they meant it in that way but I know that they do use the word normal in midwifery care a lot.

I do think that when they are caring for transgender patients they should use the appropriate pronouns etc, but birthing people is an awful term.

Yes I think "normal birth" is used a lot, which is unfortunate. They should be saying vaginal birth, straightforward, uncomplicated etc.

I think a lot of the language can be problematic ("geriatric mother" springs to mind! And "poor maternal effort" - things like that) and what should happen is that they do a review of all the language and whether any of it could be improved to be more sensitive to all "service users" (women, non-binary, trans men etc - and their partners). But of course there is a narrow focus on erasing the word "woman" and using "person" instead, to appease the TRA lobby.

@Siablue Absolutely shocking that! Definitely report! It doesn't matter whether they meant it like that or not, they need pulling up on it.

I agree there are so many issues regarding language used in maternity. Why can't it be a vaginal delivery, instead of a normal delivery? Why is it called an elective caesarean when it's medically indicated? Why is it called "failure to progress" rather than just saying "labour isn't progressing"? I know we've come a long way over the past few decades, but childbirth is so personal and a lot of women suffer with feelings of guilt if it doesn't go smoothly. The least we can do is make sure the language used isn't adding to that. I'll include calling women women unless otherwise requested in that, although it's a slightly different issue.

On a side note, I don't know why the birth centre wasn't accessible, but it would seem bonkers not to have ramps, wider doorways etc in a place where the vast majority of patients will leave in a bed (for transfer) or with a pram (on discharge) and some will arrive by wheelchair, even if not disabled but simply in labour.

One of the worst is probably "spontaneous abortion" for a miscarriage, I would have thought it's particularly important to be sensitive about the language used for pregnancy and baby loss.

I don't particularly object to elective c-section though, I think it's an important medical distinction between a planned one and an emergency one. Although I supposed you could use planned instead of elective, is it really that bad to "elect" a c section?

(Sorry... I’m derailing a lot now!)

I'll join you in the detail - sorry OP!

Spontaneous abortion is indeed a horrendous phrase and should not be used with patients IMO.

I agree that it is important to distinguish between emergency and planned sections. The RCOG distinguishes four categories, along a spectrum ranging from maternal/ fetal compromise to no maternal/ fetal compromise. Category 4 is "at a time to suit the woman and maternity services". This would still include both sections performed for medical reasons (e.g. breech presentation) and those performed at the woman's request. However, it doesn't have a misleading name (though arguably there could be a further distinction in cat IV). Nothing wrong with choosing a section, but it's not the same as having a medically indicated section. Planned and elective just aren't the same. Oddly, in OB GYN they use the ELCS/ EMCS distinction, which merges three categories into one. Surely it is relevant to know exactly why a woman had a section? A planned section that's brought forward because a woman has gone into labour is technically an EMCS, but so is a section under GA due to an immediate and severe risk to either mother, baby or both.

"Black Birthing People?" That's a mild one.

How about "Broodmares" or "Beasts?". Anyone on Twitter for example with an interest would have seen ages ago that "cis" black women are openly called these disgustingly racist, offensive terms by Transwomen. I won't put up screenshots as I'm mindful of being banned.

This includes putting up photos of mostly darkskinned black women to mock and say we look like men. It's a twisted way to say Transwomen are the better option. & It's done in detailed fashion.

TRAs are yet another group who use our existence for their debates in order to gain social justice points. In this particular respect, implying that denying male bodies access to female spaces is the same as denying cis black women access to those spaces. They do all this whilst never ever calling out the racists amongst them. Cis black women are their White Privilege diversity props.

It does not matter what new movement or whim comes into being - black women are always the scapegoats. & If we push back we are "jealous" and "aggressive". But thats not just a Trans thing, it's other groups too.

So do forgive me if I'm sceptical as to why being called "Black Birthing People" is today's outrage.

@DeeCeeCherry

"Black Birthing People?" That's a mild one.

How about "Broodmares" or "Beasts?". Anyone on Twitter for example with an interest would have seen ages ago that "cis" black women are openly called these disgustingly racist, offensive terms by Transwomen. I won't put up screenshots as I'm mindful of being banned.

This includes putting up photos of mostly darkskinned black women to mock and say we look like men. It's a twisted way to say Transwomen are the better option. & It's done in detailed fashion.

TRAs are yet another group who use our existence for their debates in order to gain social justice points. In this particular respect, implying that denying male bodies access to female spaces is the same as denying cis black women access to those spaces. They do all this whilst never ever calling out the racists amongst them. Cis black women are their White Privilege diversity props.

It does not matter what new movement or whim comes into being - black women are always the scapegoats. & If we push back we are "jealous" and "aggressive". But thats not just a Trans thing, it's other groups too.

So do forgive me if I'm sceptical as to why being called "Black Birthing People" is today's outrage.

I'm not even on Twitter, and I've seen it. It's horrific. Extreme, hideously blatant misogynoir on the one hand, hardly ever called out by anyone but black women, and then using black women as props to pretend to an interest in diversity on the other. Denying black women's femininity and equality as women, by comparing racism to male colonisation in a nakedly opportunist and racist false equivalence, or by outright racist abuse. It's endless and horrible and the lack of outrage more widely is horrendous in itself, too.