A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

Agree specific provision is the answer though. Trans women aren't safe in men's prisons. Nobody should be at risk of harm

Many male prisoners are at risk of harm and there are a number of recognised groups of vulnerable male prisoners. It is the responsibility of the male prison estate to safely house male prisoners.

The female estate is a separate entity in recognition of well established sex-based differences in offending behaviour and prisoner needs.

2018 Ministry of Justice
Female Offender Strategy
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/719819/female-offender-strategy.pdf

When I first encountered the law changes etc being pushed for by the trans community a few years ago I was completely knocked for a loop. I had many friends in the local LGBT community, many of whom are trans. I always respected their identities and still do and I thought that was as far as it went. I had no idea they wanted it to impact me and other womens’ lives beyond just remembering a name change to refer to someone as he/she or whatever.

I was especially flabbergasted to see laid out in front of me what was happening to lesbians. I really didn’t want to believe it, even though I had been approached by many transwomen trying to chat me up and I hadn’t attended a lesbian only event that was female only possibly ever. It took me about two minutes however to ascertain that everything I was being told by other lesbians was true. It’s perfectly possible to rub along quite happily in the LGBT community not noticing what you don’t expect to be there, but within two minutes of asking questions at my local gay bar I was told that ‘transwomen are women whether you like it or not. Transwomen are lesbians and have as much right to be at lesbian events as you do whether you like it or not. You’ve been talking to terfs, don’t listen to terfs. You’re a terf/bigot/transphobic.’

Somebody very young with hardly any life experience might not understand this for what it is or might not see the harm in it, but when you’ve been around the block a few times it’s as obvious as the nose on your face.

Datum had a message deleted!

#Unfuckingbelievable.

Many male prisoners are at risk of harm and there are a number of recognised groups of vulnerable male prisoners. It is the responsibility of the male prison estate to safely house male prisoners.

Oh, I agree. Trans women should be housed in wings attached to male prisons. They are male, and it still unnerves and upsets women to have male people share communal spaces. And I also agree that the prison estate doesn't do enough, actually, to manage all manner of vulnerable men. I imagine funding is a huge reason. None of that is women's responsibility or problem to solve, however.

Well I've really enjoyed this thread and found it very interesting, as it particularly gives some insights into different perspectives that I have been looking for, so thanks to everyone and particularly alexk3 for sticking around.

My main point is around 'woman' as an identity.
I don't have anything that I would call a gender identity, I don't know what it is to 'feel' like a woman. I just know I am female.
So I guess that is the main root of my position in this debate - I think that if anyone says they 'feel' like a woman and therefore they are one, that is not something I particularly recognise.
In the main, if someone wants to identify as a man or a woman, in contrast to their sex, that doesn't cause me or anyone else an issue, and it's right that they should have special protections to prevent discrimination and recognise particular needs for example in health care.
But when it comes to important sex-based rights, somebody's identity should not override someone else's rights.

If I woke up with a male body tomorrow, my reaction would entirely depend on whether I was aware the day before that I had been female, so whether I would be a man, or a medical miracle.

This business about "passing".

Isn't it much more likely that people do notice but are polite?

really not trying to mansplain anything but apologies

alexk3
You weren't doing anything of the sort.
Women, girls, transmen & females who identify as non-binary never mansplain. Its a consequence of male socialisation and male entitlement, so sex-based.
Female socialisation conditions a very different response to group discussions.

The female estate is a separate entity in recognition of well established sex-based differences in offending behaviour and prisoner needs.

It's actually a UN agreed basic standard. Which is why this is so mind-blowing: placing males in women's spaces, entirely on an honour system, with no regard at all for the women's views, welfare, or even safety. Sometimes I really can't believe it's happening, because it is so self evidently batshit, cruel, and wrong.

Datum had a message deleted!

It was an important comment about the clear distictions between girls /young women who identify as transgender and middle aged heterosexual males who identify as transgender.

Ben GNC Centric is a young woman who is a lesbian and previously identified as transgender. In this interview with Benjamin Boyce, she outlines important issues (based on her experiences) within the trans community when the significance of age and sex are disregarded.

'Coercion & Abuse in the Gender ID Community'
14 Mar 2019

@Thingybob

yes I don't think stereotypes help anyone really, when I was questioning more I tried to steer clear of things like: 'well I played with farm animals etc.' and focused more on how I was uncomfortable even as a child with having a female name and things like that.

It's not really! My stepdad just usually does it so I felt like it was something we had in common! Not really evidence either way just something that was nice.

I don't really care, I'd probably rather date a bi girl at the minute becausee otherwise I'd feel inadequate probably. I'm not transitioning to be attractive to anyone - I had much better luck with women as a lesbian anyway haha.

I'm not really bothered, I have a group of friends at uni that's 50/50 men and women and I get along great with the guys and I know they see me as one of them? So being blokey doesn't really matter, I'm not blokey at all and neither are my current male friends really.

I identify as a man because I just am. - I've said I can't really explain it haha so that's it really. There were and are men in my life: I lived with my grandad as well and I do know my dad, have lived with my stepdad since I was 8 as well and he's great.

@DianasLasso

I hope your friend is doing ok now! I've thought about this a lot and for years so I'm very confident in it though :)

@Hanrora06

agree with all of your points!

@R0wantrees

yeah pretty much. all of my friend groups are massive though so people refer to me a lot in front of me with 'he'.

@Datun & r0wantrees ^

I just don't agree that you can tell people who identify as lesbians that they are not lesbians because they are attracted to trans women? my best friend is a lesbian and she has a massive crush on a trans woman currently, it doesn't mean she is bisexual. I don't think lesbians should be attacked for not wanting to be with trans women, just that some lesbians can be attracted to trans women and that that is valid.

@datun -> Also about the prisons I've said numerous times I don't know enough about it and that I'm thinking about it still?

@Whatisthisfuckery

^ what I've said above. I imagine in any relationship would have created exactly the same situation, and I prior to that had dysphoria over my name and my body, I just didn't realise what it was really. I'm not discounting anyone's opinions but I'm not going to detransition because anyone on here thinks that I should, when I know it would be wrong for me.

@wellbehavedwomen

thank you!

@BaronessBrighterThanYou

maybe? but then there's no reason for them to think I'm not a lesbian so I doubt it. I don't see why saying things like that which clearly will hurt my feelings is massively necessary.

[quote R0wantrees]Datum had a message deleted!

It was an important comment about the clear distictions between girls /young women who identify as transgender and middle aged heterosexual males who identify as transgender.

Ben GNC Centric is a young woman who is a lesbian and previously identified as transgender. In this interview with Benjamin Boyce, she outlines important issues (based on her experiences) within the trans community when the significance of age and sex are disregarded.

'Coercion & Abuse in the Gender ID Community'
14 Mar 2019

[/quote] It's always interesting what gets targeted, isn't it?

bit mansplainy but not too bad

Bet you were itching for a chance to use that line MadBadDaddy

It's always interesting what gets targeted, isn't it?

Very.

It's actually a UN agreed basic standard. Which is why this is so mind-blowing: placing males in women's spaces, entirely on an honour system, with no regard at all for the women's views, welfare, or even safety. Sometimes I really can't believe it's happening, because it is so self evidently batshit, cruel, and wrong.

I agree completely.

The disregard for women in prison is made very clear throughout the successful appeal of a pre-operative male prisoner without GRC to transfer to Women's Estate in 2009. This appeal overturned the Home Office's previous refusal and set significant precedent.
The male prisoner had been convicted of killing a male partner and subsequently following release committed a violent attempted rape of a woman. The violent sexual assault of a woman was mitigated by the claim/attribution of gender dysphoria.

During the appeal there is no apparent dicussion or assessment of impact on female prisoners except the following evidence from an expert in gender dysphoria, Dr James Barrett of the Gender Identity Clinic, Charing Cross Hospital, who had also known the Claimant for many years. Barrett explained why living in role in female accommodation was required:

"it will become clear that she is so widely accepted as female in that unit that location in the main prison will follow. I think that such acceptance will pretty generally apply in the main prison, also, although there will probably always be a small number of prisoners who will choose to make an issue of the matter because they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict. If this patient is able to cope with protracted close proximity women of that sort I would judge her able to cope with the less prolonged, more avoidable, travails of the civilian world."

www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2009/2220.html

@R0wantrees

really not trying to mansplain anything but apologies

alexk3
You weren't doing anything of the sort.
Women, girls, transmen & females who identify as non-binary never mansplain. Its a consequence of male socialisation and male entitlement, so sex-based.
Female socialisation conditions a very different response to group discussions.

I was just about to say similar. alexk3 you definitely weren't mansplaining to anyone

@TreestumpsAndTrampolines iI think the issue is you dont know that. I feel the same. I feel like I could wake up in man's body and would have the same feelings and personality. 🤷🏻‍♀️ But it's very easy to say that when I'm not...

You weren't doing anything of the sort.
Women, girls, transmen & females who identify as non-binary never mansplain. Its a consequence of male socialisation and male entitlement, so sex-based.
Female socialisation conditions a very different response to group discussions.

Yes this.

It's actually a UN agreed basic standard. Which is why this is so mind-blowing: placing males in women's spaces, entirely on an honour system, with no regard at all for the women's views, welfare, or even safety. Sometimes I really can't believe it's happening, because it is so self evidently batshit, cruel, and wrong

Yes, this! There was a post upthread - I paraphrase, apologies - which made the good point that most women in prison shouldn't have been given custodial sentences, which I completely agree with. However, the unspoken implication was that the tiny handful of women for whom custodial sentences were necessary should be hung out to dry on this one.

No, a hundred times no. No matter what a prisoner has done, they still deserve humane, decent treatment within prison. There is no way incarcerating a woman, any woman, regardless of what she's done, with rapists with penises counts as humane and decent treatment.

Datun & r0wantrees

I just don't agree that you can tell people who identify as lesbians that they are not lesbians because they are attracted to trans women? my best friend is a lesbian and she has a massive crush on a trans woman currently, it doesn't mean she is bisexual. I don't think lesbians should be attacked for not wanting to be with trans women, just that some lesbians can be attracted to trans women and that that is valid.

Being homosexual isn't an identity. Your friend identifying as a lesbian could mean that they are a male in a relationship with another male. Or a male in a relationship with a female.

If groups are gathering themselves together, what is the point, unless they share a common characteristic? Why bother gathering together for political activism, or social acceptance, if the categories are random?

How on earth would homosexuals and lesbians ever be able to campaign for legitimacy in the eyes of society and the law, if, for example, a lesbian can be a man, a woman, a woman in a relationship with another woman, two men in a relationship, or a heterosexual couple? Indeed, a heterosexual couple, in your view, could be two lesbians, who could both be male!

It's gobbledygook.

Sexual orientation is protected under law.

Dismantling it is the opposite of progressive. And is undoing decades of campaigning to have homosexuality accepted.

Just for clarification, the law says that homosexuality is same-sex attraction. And it also says that a woman is a female of any age. Likewise a man is a male of any age.

These terms do have significance in law. Irrespective of whether or not other people want to re-write them as being socially significant but legally insignificant.

It's always interesting what gets targeted, isn't it?

As Ben GNC Centric describes in the interview linked above, girls and young women are at risk to coersion and abuse by older predatory males. It is the case in any setting/community that age and sex are very relevent factors.

Increasing number of girls and young women who have explored their gender identity in transgender spaces describe being manipulated by older autogynephile males.

I just don't agree that you can tell people who identify as lesbians that they are not lesbians because they are attracted to trans women? my best friend is a lesbian and she has a massive crush on a trans woman currently, it doesn't mean she is bisexual. I don't think lesbians should be attacked for not wanting to be with trans women, just that some lesbians can be attracted to trans women and that that is valid.

Lesbian is not an identity, its a specific description of female homosexual relationships.
A sexual/romantic relationship between a male and a female is a heterosexual one.
There is nothing invalid about a bisexual or heterosexual relationship.

@Datun

I think we have to agree to disagree really, I'm never going to go around calling myself a lesbian because it's just not me, so I don't expect female-attracted trans women to have to call themselves straight. NO, being gay isn't an identity, my friend just is gay, and she includes trans women in that. Nothing against people who don't though.