A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

@midgebabe

no worries!

@PumbaasCucumbas

thanks, no worries I've enjoyed it (mostly!). Also yeah maybe. I do worry about that a lot, but I just don't really see it happening. There's one detransitioner I know about who I think experienced that, and she went back to being very feminine and having reverse dysphoria over her new male traits (I think she had some trauma though which isn't my experience). I think because we don't know about the causes of dysphoria it worries me more. But then with depression and that, sometimes when I feel less sad I think 'if I can one day not be depressed, maybe one day I won't have dysphoria?' but then a few days later I go back to being depressed haha. Also even at times like now where I've been less sad/stressed I still have dysphoria so I don't think it's related to that for me. Sorry not really anything to do with your question just accidentally typed all of my thoughts lol. I'm pretty focused on my course really, I've done fairly well this year so it's not having too much of an impact thankfully.

Ah you're welcome! I genuinely understand both of those concerns, even if I don't share them to the same extent. I really feel strongly about more GIC funding (for your first point), I think more sessions/shorter wait times would help trans and questioning people a lot.

I'm glad you understand a bit more :)

The idea of whether or not I'd swap for a male body if I could magically do so is interesting.

I hate periods, and I'm starting perimenopause which is also shit and I hate being weaker than men (as a class) and therefore live in fear of male violence. So, if it was just me, then I'd probably love it.

However, my female body gave me the two greatest loves of my life - my children. They still love my female body and it is a huge source of comfort to them - even the older one but especially the younger one who is still breastfeeding. My smell (because of my female hormones), my hugs and my squishy bits can calm them like nothing and no-one else. I see them physically relax when they hug me. I couldn't take that comfort away from them, even if a male body would be nicer for me.

I definitely don't want a male body if it requires medicalisation and surgery. I've still got complications from 2 c-sections so I know that no surgery is ever without the risk of long-term chronic consequences. I personally think that any non-essential surgery isn't really for the best and loving your healthy body as it is (even if it doesn't fit in with what society deems is attractive or what fits with your personality) is a better option. But that's my opinion - adults can do what they want.

As a young woman I was often compared to men because of my outlook, the fact I didn't really comply with female socialisation. I was told I was 'fierce' and 'stand-offish' (which meant I didn't automatically do what men wanted me to). I thought I didn't want children. I think I'd have been very susceptible to trans ideology. Very glad I grew up then and not now.

*The way most women here don’t feel like they do have a gender is probably the most interesting thing I’ve learnt from this thread tbh8

I would say that I don't possess/have a gender, because I don't think a gender is a discrete 'thing' which exists - outside of expectations and assumptions of people - depending on whether they were born male or female.

If you asked, "do you relate to any gender stereotype?" I would say, maybe to some, to others not, and that I also relate to some interests and occupations associated with men. For example, I am one of just a handful of women on a forum that it entirely peopled by males ( an urban architecture forum), and I like football, and so on.

For me, all of that is part of the rich tapestry of me, of my individuality.
Of course, as a woman/female - I've also given birth and am a mother. Now that is specific to women -an experience/practice that only women can undergo - by nature of biology.

@Justhadathought

I suppose that's the crux of the GC/trans disagreement really, the idea that gender is just stereotypes vs. whether it is unrelated and innate.

I suppose that's the crux of the GC/trans disagreement really, the idea that gender is just stereotypes vs. whether it is unrelated and innate.

Yes it is. Exactly. You understand that better than many of your peers, who think gender critical feminists want to limit women and "reduce them to their genitals". We don't. We just believe that biological sex is critical in many ways. And that it categorically should not limit your opportunities or choices or personality.

[quote LemonadeAndDaisyChains]@MadBadDaddy Mon 13-Jul-20 16:07:42

All of what you just said there.
I find the tone between how you both are spoken to differing which is interesting - you get meh, what do you know, male socialisation" type comments, Alex gets concern as "just a lost, confused woman"
If you're (general you not aimed at anyone in particular) not trans, where do you get off telling other people what they are and aren't?[/quote]
Maybe that’s because MBD has openly admitted trolling on another thread and Alex has been interesting and courteous.

Or as glamour model Bergdorf explained rather stupidly that GC feminism says you need a uterus to be a woman.

Alex, I am sure it's not nice reading many posts asking you to think again. It really is coming from identifying with you, rather than not being able to see what you mean.

I love being called Sir when it happens. What's that about?

If surgery is what it takes to find peace then so be it.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I agree, though I only know more about it because I lurk here to see the GC views - not for the reasons @Justhadathought suggests. However I do think some GC things can be a bit reductive - the cervical cancer # in my opinion was just a bit mean... As with all debates both sides could always do things better (in my opinion!). I suppose it's just so emotionally charged for all involved.

@Deliriumoftheendless

Don't know anything about MBD (other than she's been lush to me), but I have been told by a previous poster that she felt an affinity with me because I was female, so it's not just because of the way I reply.

@testing987654321

Yes I know, I do get the concern but aye it's not much fun for me! Haha yes that's odd - thank you though , I think it is really.

I think the Gender ID thing is very much where actual common ground could be reached, because so many TRAs seem to have an erroneous view of feminist viewpoints on Gender.

alex, you seem to view your sense of gender identity as a naturally arising phenomena, which is why the trans issue gets tied to sexual orientation arguments that rest on innateness. Therefore, I think there is (understandably) a reluctance to examine your own sense of gender identity too critically.

Feminists don't see it as a neutral, innate, naturally arising phenomena- we think gender is a complex, culturally bound and therefore largely externally imposed set of ideas that disadvantage women, and, of feminist necessity, should be critiqued thoroughly.

Much of the misunderstandings could be resolved if this distinction was more clearly understood, I think.

I suppose that's the crux of the GC/trans disagreement really, the idea that gender is just stereotypes vs. whether it is unrelated and innate

For me there is no one 'thing' or 'item' which makes up this supposed gender identity. I do suspect, though, that in some people that certain' items' of gender can become fixated upon, and others items utterly rejected. Then, assuming a 'gender identity' could be viewed as stepping into a very idealised or stereotypical role or presentation.

Human beings are surely far more multi-faceted, though....and we all occupy a spectrum of possible expressions and characteristics; each forming our own unique pattern or style. That is when we are permitted by society to fully express our potentials, regardless of our sex. some societies rigidly constrain people on account of their birth sex. I'd say that even during my life time I have seen gender stereotypes/presentations go into reverse mode, even as women take up ever more roles and functions in society.

Empathy and nurturing are supposedly female traits, and rational detachment are supposedly male traits....even though many of us, male or female, will share in in both of these traits. If you look at the extremes of 'maleness' and 'femaleness' you do tend get gender specific 'clustering' around each pole, relating to certain kind of traits.

I lurk here to see the GC views - not for the reasons @Justhadathought suggests

I wasn't referencing you with that particular post. That's certainly not the feeling I'm getting with you. Although for many MTF - it is.

@FloralBunting

completely agree about misrepresentation of arguments, it really winds me up when trans people do that because there's no point arguing against something that wasn't being argued in the first place! I do see the GC side but it is just so at odds with my own experience I don't share it. I think the most important thing someone who is questioning can do is to make sure they don't have external reasons - like transitioning to feel safer after a sexual assault or something, for example. When I used to lurk r/detrans that seemed like a really common story, unfortunately. Or more generally just transitioning because of gender roles.

@Justhadathought

I think a society with less gender roles would help everyone! As I've said just above I think anyone transitioning because of societal expectations of gender should be really careful because I think they're at a very high risk of detransition.

@Justhadathought

Ah right - still don't think it's a majority doing that but perhaps

alex - feel free to side step this, but you acknowledged that you have seen some things in trans testimonies that reference external reasons, or gender roles. I know you feel fairly certain you are not in that group, but I do want to challenge you that you're not as immune to those unconscious gender pressures as you perhaps feel you are.

You can see that it happens, obviously. But your own view that your own gender identity is separate to that seems at odds with some things you have said about family members expectations of you as female, or even the positive feelings you describe when someone calls you the respectful term 'sir' or when you are doing something you have subconsciously coded 'male' like mowing the lawn.

I guess what I'm asking here is if you can see how you may well have been unconsciously influenced by all sorts of subliminal messages that inform what you think is a natural sense of Gender identity? Like I say, please don't feel obligated to respond, but perhaps take some time to think it through without any pressure to come back with any conclusions.

[quote alexk3]@Justhadathought

I suppose that's the crux of the GC/trans disagreement really, the idea that gender is just stereotypes vs. whether it is unrelated and innate.[/quote]
Absolutely that, yes. That's the trouble, really. GC women think sex is why women are oppressed, and gender the mechanism - so asking women who believe that to respect gender identity is asking them to respect the prison bars of their own oppression.

I hope you also understand that while we disagree, we do all very sincerely wish you well. Whatever path your life takes, and whatever choices you make, I really, really do hope they're the right ones for you. You sound like someone who has dealt with a lot already quite honestly, from snippets here and there, and who has remained kind and open and a trier, anyway. I admire that very much.

I would also say that if a young man of your age said he was getting a vasectomy, or conversely that he and his girlfriend were trying for a baby, he'd get the same response on here about the benefit of waiting a bit first. It's less about disagreeing with your choices (obviously they must, must be your choices; you are the one who will live with them) as much as it is that you're likely to do a lot of 180s on how you want to live your life, over the next few years. Not because you're not clever and insightful, but because the life stage you're in is inherently one of amazing possibilities and shifts and changes, and rather like a kaleidoscope you can't know how the pieces will have rearranged themselves by the time you're 25 or so. None of us could - which is one of the brilliant things about it, too. So much potential in every possible direction. I'm trying really hard to say that in a way that isn't offensive, or patronising, because that truly isn't my intention. We're half way through life and still don't have it all figured out, but I think that's part of getting older: recognising that aiming for a point when you do is a fool's errand. Nobody ever has it all figured out. We spend our whole lives as a work in progress, and shift constantly through that. So locking your choices down at 19 or 20 is potentially going to be closing doors you may later regret. That's all.

Anyway: I wish you so, so much the best. Whatever choices you make, I hope they are the right ones for you, and that you live a long, happy, and interesting life. Ignore us if it's harming your resilience, but do always feel free to come and share your thoughts with us, if you feel inclined? It's interesting, when someone is so open and reasoned and willing to listen, as well as explain. I can't imagine feeling as you do, but I do sincerely recognise the urgency and reality of it to you. So thank you for explaining that so clearly.

However I do think some GC things can be a bit reductive - the cervical cancer # in my opinion was just a bit mean.

I think because we are fighting for the right to talk about women's health issues as part of us having female bodies, and everything that goes with it.

We see it as important to draw a line in the sand and retain the right to do that for many reasons, and it really is erasing women's rights and ability to challenge oppression to not consider why women (female people) are discriminated against because of their female bodies, and who has the societal power.

Personally I think male transactivists and male trans allies particularly, who don't get that, are simply demonstrating their male privilege.

It's always worth remembering that we are social animals. We don't thrive alone and none of us live without being influenced by our surroundings.

@FloralBunting

My nan occasionally nagging at me to be girly is not something that would or has influence(d) me to transition, and that's the only vague gender stereotype that's been expressed - they don't think I should do certain things because I am female etc.

Being called 'sir' isn't really anything to do with gender roles, and it's not because of respect that I like that - random men calling me 'mate' has the same impact. I don't really get the argument: do you think I think I'm a man because I liked mowing the lawn? I've said numerous times that it isn't about stereotypes but about body and how I'm addressed, it's just a side effect of dysphoria that doing 'male' things makes me happy. If I randomly comply with a gender role then yes I enjoy that, but they aren't the motivation for my transition, and I don't think that 'oh I like doing male things I must be a man'.

Maybe in some ways gender roles helped me figure things out - my friends on DofE said I was like a man in how I climbed stuff first to show them how to do it, and I enjoyed that, but it is in no way the reason I transitioned/am transitioning, and I liked it because they said I was 'like a man' regardless of their reasoning really - it's not the gender role that matters but the way it makes me be perceived.

So, the answer is yes,, probably - but not in any meaningful way. Child me who hated being called Alexandra didn't feel that way because of societal expectations for women.

@alexk3

I have a few rhetorical questions for you that I hope may help you in parsing out your discomfort and clarifying your GD. Obviously feel free to answer but I am not looking for your answers just hoping to give you some 'food for thought'.

(1) Have you ever had an orgasm? 20yr old is very young in terms of sexuality and many females/women are so uncomfortable with their bodies that they have not explored themselves enough and/or have not had partners explore their bodies due to embarrassment, shame, not understanding their bodies functionality in regards to sexual gratification - this is why there are so many articles on 'how to have an orgasm for women'.

(2) Have you considered that many females experience some level of dysphoria due to rapidly developing breasts in addition to the ridicule and/or abuse they experience as a result (not to mention pain when running or playing sports etc.)? Double mastectomies may destroy the sensitive nerves that allow sexual arousal/pleasure via nipples (similar to feeling destruction resulting from breast augmentation and in some cases breast reduction) - and that omnipresent chance that the nipples may die and fall off? Have you considered that testosterone in large doses does a terrible disservice long-term to the female body?

(3) Have you considered that phalloplasty is inexact and may cause more GD as using a pump to get/maintain a semblance of an erection would forever remind you that you are in fact female? Have you considered that you may not be able to experience any sexual pleasure as a result of your clitoris most likely being mutilated in the surgery?

I ask you these rhetorical questions for your own consideration. I would have related to you quite easily at 20yrs old and I could expand on that for you but that is not the purpose of my post. I will say this - if I was unable to enjoy the tactile pleasures of sexuality and was unable to to enjoy orgasms I would find life much less enjoyable and even far less so if I would have let myself make irreversible decisions stripping orgasms from my purview at 20yrs old (now 43yrs old).

I don't know what it 'feels like' to be a woman or what it 'feels like' to be a man. My body is female with all the trappings, benefits, and pain of female-based biology. I hope you find peace with whatever decisions you make in regards to gender and your body; thank you for sharing your experiences with FWR.

@wellbehavedwomen

Thank you! I'll keep lurking as usual and if there's any posts that want a trans view I might weigh in :). Best wishes for you as well and you're welcome.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I agree and I do get that but then everyone knows it is only females who get cervical cancer - I know there's a weird minority that don't believe in biological sex but it is a minority! But then #s like that, which say something true apparently purely for the sake of hurting trans people (who are very aware of their sex), are a little pointless in my opinion.

@testing987654321

completely agree! as I've said this is why there needs to be more funding into MH so questioning people can access counselling easier and for longer.

I guess what you see as gender roles helping you figure things out could equally be interpreted as society telling you through the specification of those roles, and other people applying them to you , that you are more man than women.

The nature nurture angle is impossible to resolve, even if we can see that at a class level nurture might be having a big impact, we can't say for certain that any specific example is not nature

I rather get the "being called sir" . I only get that on line ( very feminine figure, but work internationally ) but it does just give me a smug warm glow.

But then #s like that, which say something true apparently purely for the sake of hurting trans people

That's really not what it was for. It wasn't about trans people, it was about censorship of critical language about female health issues. It's taking our language back. We've lost a lot by putting other people's feelings first. Why should we?

Transactivists often don't feel the need to be sensitive to women's feelings, in fact they are pretty notorious for demonstrating zero empathy or consideration for women in many cases, and it all does seem very selfish and self centred a lot of the time from my gender critical feminist perspective, and from that of people on the sidelines.

know there's a weird minority that don't believe in biological sex but it is a minority!

Why can't we acknowledge it then? Why can't trans people accept that not everything is about them? That some things are shock horror, more important than a minority of individuals feeling "excluded" by universally understood language?

If people can't speak the truth, or are scared to, that's not a good situation.