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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A question for Transmen and Transwomen

999 replies

SpiritOfEnquiry · 09/07/2020 14:01

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

  1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.
  1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

OP posts:
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MadBadDaddy · 11/07/2020 16:20

@Datun

Sorry, the original quote was from Stephanie Davis Arai.
I think Stephanie must have been referring to a different document. There is nothing in there that remotely resembles a position of "100% affirming" support. Quite the opposite IMO.
Datun · 11/07/2020 17:08

She isn't, no.

Professionals are warned that ‘conversion therapy’ constitutes any attempt to ‘bring about a change in someone’s gender identity.’ In other words, even if a child’s belief does not match reality, it must be affirmed as the truth. In no other area of health care is a practitioner compelled to confirm a patient’s false belief.

www.transgendertrend.com/children-left-unprotected-by-new-memorandum-of-understanding-on-conversion-therapy/

MadBadDaddy · 11/07/2020 17:38

Datun

Ah, you see, there's the confusion. One is a publication by a respected professional body, the other is uncredited fear-mongering opinionated bollocks that I wouldn't wrap my chips in.

Easy mistake to make.

Datun · 11/07/2020 18:02

Anyone can read it. It's only a couple of pages long.

Stephanie Davis Arai has spoken to hundreds and hundreds of trans children and their parents. Mostly girls, obviously. She has said that she is yet to see one who is either not a lesbian, autistic, or has suffered from past trauma, usually sexual.

All these children had a transgender identity. Assuming that it's not down to something else, but affirming a child in this gender identity, is what has got the Tavistock into trouble.

Shame they didn't listen more to Stephanie, who was shortlisted for the John Maddox prize.

The John Maddox Prize recognises the work of individuals who promote science and evidence, advancing the public discussion around difficult topics despite challenges or hostility.

Still, I guess the prize wouldn't exist without people determined to frame evidenced-based work as 'fear-mongering, opinionated bollocks'.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 11/07/2020 18:05

Agree with MBD there, opinion pieces and actual articles do tend to get mixed up a lot on here

madwoman1ntheattic · 11/07/2020 18:18

I’d actually quite like to see Stephanie Davies Arai in conversation with our MadBadDaddy here. Grin
I know who my money is on.

FantaOra · 11/07/2020 18:29

Madwoman

I don't think she would bother to waste her time when the posts here rely on a quick two minute read of Wikipedia.

madwoman1ntheattic · 11/07/2020 18:40

Well quite. It would be over so very quickly. Grin

MadBadDaddy · 11/07/2020 18:45

Cheers Lem

No offence to Stephanie, who does admittedly have 'an interest in neuroscience' and like you say she almost won a prize once, but I fail utterly to understand her doom-saying interpretation of the linked Memorandum. I thought it quite reassuring for all concerned, actually.

R0wantrees · 11/07/2020 19:17

Published on WPUK:

'The Natal Female Question'
(extract)
"We write this as experienced clinicians who have worked in the sole NHS clinic for children and adolescents presenting with distress around their gender identity and their sexed bodies. We have chosen to publish here, rather than a peer reviewed journal, to ensure greater reach than those journals achieve. Also, we publish here in solidarity with WPUK who are currently in the receipt of defamatory accusations of transphobia – accusations also levelled at us.

The exponential rise in adolescent natal females (teenage girls) presenting at gender identity services over the last few years has been well documented. (continues)

We posit that there are multiple, interweaving factors bearing down on girls and young women that have collided at this particular time causing a distress seemingly related to gender and their sex. These factors comprise both the external world (i.e. the social, political and cultural sphere) and the internal (i.e. the emotional, psychological and subjective). The external and internal interact and feed each other [1].

It is notable that even speaking about these observable, and clinically relevant, factors are seen by some as evidence of a form of anti-trans rhetoric. This deeply disturbs the clinicians whose professional lives are dedicated to understanding the source and meaning of human distress. It is from this place that we speak.

In spite of apparent social gains for minority groups, our present-day culture obsesses in highly gendered ways over the signifiers of what it means to be a boy and a girl, a man and a woman. Girls are under ever more pressure to capitulate to the ‘pinkification’ and ‘pornification’ of girlhood. Girls who eschew these signifiers, who are uncomfortable or dissent from this demand, can often be lonely and isolated in their apparent idiosyncrasy. Sexual feelings awaken amidst sexual harassment and press reports of misogynist hate crimes. Dawning same-sex attraction can occur against a backdrop of homophobia; as well as a dearth of everyday, run-of-the-mill lesbian visibility. This is particularly relevant for girls drawn to an aesthetic which is viewed as ‘masculine’ (and therefore wrongly ascribed as ‘male’), but could be understood and owned as a butch lesbian identity if only these girls had access to it. Linked to this is the absence of critical feminist thought of the most elementary nature in the school curriculum. Failing that, even basic sex parity in the classroom would impact early on the sorts of messages both girls and boys internalise about their capacities and the expectations others have on them.

Changes to the body during puberty can bring about much more turmoil than is readily acknowledged. It is particularly disconcerting and shame-inducing for girls who begin menarche early, and have to navigate the whole mess and embarrassment of sanitary protection in primary school toilet provision often ill-equipped for this. There is embarrassment inherent in growing breasts, of these being noticed and pejoratively commented on and, worse, groped.

Crucially, it is important to acknowledge, that girls and young women have long recruited their bodies as ways of expressing misery and self-hatred. Bodies become the site onto which they can project their perceived failure to live up to society’s expectations of them and also their internal, psychic pain. Psychic pain that arises out of the manifold implications of being a suffering human being: trauma, abuse, neglect, bullying, social ostracism, bereavement to name but a few. Also, for some, the fear of leaving childhood behind, the terror of female adulthood, is overwhelming.

It is not unreasonable to hypothesise that developing gender dysphoria, and alighting on a trans identity as the way of understanding, can, in some instances, be the solution (cure) to the ‘problem’ of being born female. It could be the ultimate act of self-harm. A form of self-harm hardly noticeable to many because it is so aligned with the disavowed but ever present attack on gender non-conforming women that exists throughout society.

We cannot ignore the role of the internet in this; whether cyber bullying, competitive instagram, exposure to pornography, sexualisation or the associated phenomenon of a sort of social and collective influencing. We know that there is a parallel world of on-line engagement where children and young people are engaging globally out of sight of any mediating influence or alternative explanation for their distress.

Whatever influencing factors, both exogenous / social and endogenous / psychological, there might be these are all happening within the wider context of the decimation of local child and adolescent mental health services (CAMHS) over the last decade. We are seeing a generation of young people emerge who have been poorly served by local specialist provision: a phenomenon recognised and documented here.

In the clinical setting we have become familiar with narratives, especially in younger children, resting almost entirely on the most superficial of signifiers: toys, activities, hair, clothes, a certain aesthetic upon which effectively the (self) diagnosis of trans is made, and a social role transition affected. Unfortunately these tropes are compounded and perpetuated by some “diversity” trainings delivered in schools." (continues)

womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/17/the-natal-female-question/

ChattyLion · 11/07/2020 19:22

Thanks for posting R0wan that is very powerful testimony coming from GIDS clinicians

R0wantrees · 11/07/2020 19:23

Stephanie Davis Arai has spoken to hundreds and hundreds of trans children and their parents. Mostly girls, obviously. She has said that she is yet to see one who is either not a lesbian, autistic, or has suffered from past trauma, usually sexual.

The same point has been made by those professionals who are whistleblowing serious Safeguarding / Duty of Care concerns about the treatment of chidren by Gender Identity Cinics whether in the UK, Scandinavia, North America or Australia.

Datun · 11/07/2020 19:37

No offence to Stephanie, who does admittedly have 'an interest in neuroscience' and like you say she almost won a prize once, but I fail utterly to understand her doom-saying interpretation of the linked Memorandum.

Correct.

R0wantrees · 11/07/2020 19:38

ChattyLion It was published a while ago, I think around the time of the Make More Noise Detransitioners' event in Manchester at the end of last year.
Professionals including Dr. David Bell, a consultant psychiatrist from the Tavistock Centre & Dr. Anna Hutchinson, a clinical psychologist and former Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) employee from Tavistock took part in the first panel discussion.

Reported by Liv Bridge for Feminist Current
'Detransitioners are living proof that the practices surrounding “trans youth” need be questioned, yet their experiences are too often ignored.'
www.feministcurrent.com/2020/01/09/detransitioners-are-living-proof-the-practices-surrounding-trans-kids-need-be-questioned/

& Helen Joyce for Standpoint:

'Speaking up for female eunuchs
The woes of “detransitioners” are a warning: treating children with gender dysphoria is riskier than zealots admit'
standpointmag.co.uk/issues/february-2020/speaking-up-for-female-eunuchs/

R0wantrees · 11/07/2020 20:01

Stephanie Davis Arai has spoken to hundreds and hundreds of trans children and their parents. Mostly girls, obviously. She has said that she is yet to see one who is either not a lesbian, autistic, or has suffered from past trauma, usually sexual.

Published January 17, 2020
Why I Resigned from Tavistock: Trans-Identified Children Need Therapy, Not Just ‘Affirmation’ and Drugs
written by Marcus Evans (Psychotherapist)

(extract)
"As I argued in a May, 2019 presentation before the House of Lords, this de facto censorship regime is harming children.

Those who advocate an unquestioning “affirmation”-based approach to trans-identified children often will claim that any delay or hesitation in assisting a child’s desired gender transition may cause irreparable psychological harm, and possibly even lead to suicide. They also typically will cite research purporting to prove that a child who transitions can expect higher levels of psychological health and life satisfaction. None of these claims align substantially with any robust data or studies in this area. Nor do they align with the cases I have encountered over decades as a psychotherapist. (continues)

"In his report to the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust Board, Dr. Bell cited the high percentage of patients suffering from gender dysphoria who also suffer other complex problems, such as trauma, autism, a history of sexual abuse and attention deficit disorder. This finding is consistent with a growing body of knowledge that connects the development of gender dysphoria with psychological factors. Since resigning my position at Tavistock, I’ve been contacted by many parents asking advice about trans-identifying children who often tend to exhibit one or more of these factors. Typically, the parents were concerned that services such as Tavistock encouraged the idea that their child’s problems could be comprehensively addressed merely by changing gender.

They also would express concern that their child was being groomed by a thicket of online video resources that instruct children on how to get past whatever nominal clinical gatekeeping they may encounter. An increasingly common characteristic of children presenting with gender dysphoria is a deep involvement within online chat groups that support their sense of dislocation, encourage them to view voices of moderation (including parents) as enemies, and which echo the cultish language of pro-anorexia and pro-suicide websites. As in actual cults, followers are encouraged to believe that their entire gamut of personal problems can be solved so long as they embrace one overarching dogma. “Feel dislocated from your sex, feel like you do not fit in?” asks the Transgender Heaven website. “Here is a group that understands your feelings of dislocation and confusion and can offer you an identity that can provide certainty and a feeling that you belong.” Or as one pro-trans vlogger said on YouTube, “trans is a solution to feeling shit.”

“My online experience, having been affected by that level of groupthink, that level of moral policing, and the constant implicit threats of social exposure and [ostracism] made me an intensely internal and anxious person,” reported one detransitioned woman about her online experience in this world. “It made me paranoid about the motives of people around me—I saw my parents as bigots because tumblr told me to; because they held out for so long to prevent me from starting hormones. Anyone that slipped up and misgendered me was, according to tumblr, an enemy. One incident—one ‘she’—had the ability to make me absolutely hate someone. Tumblr’s version of morality and justice made me—an impressionable, insecure teenager—feel like my only safe place was in my head, where I would never be misgendered.” (continues)

As a governor of the Tavistock Trust, I personally witnessed attempts by the Trust’s management to dismiss or undermine both Dr. Bell’s report, which he submitted in late 2018, and the letter from parents. This included accusing Dr. Bell of fictionalizing the case studies he described, questioning his credentials, withholding his report from certain governors, and preventing him from attending a meeting to discuss the Medical Director’s response to his report.

I have learned, through long experience with managing clinical areas in the National Health Service, that such efforts to dismiss or discredit serious concerns about a service or clinical approach typically are driven by those seeking to evade accountability and shield their methods from criticism. Such a defensive, self-serving approach would be dangerous and objectionable in any NHS context. It was particularly worrying in the context of a service that treats vulnerable young people in the midst of life-changing, often irreversible decisions that have unknown medical consequences. And so in 2019, I resigned from the Tavistock board of governors, in protest over the Trust’s failure to address the serious concerns that Dr. Bell and parents had raised." (continues)

quillette.com/2020/01/17/why-i-resigned-from-tavistock-trans-identified-children-need-therapy-not-just-affirmation-and-drugs/

FantaOra · 11/07/2020 20:09

Miranda Yardley, transexual, talking about conversion therapy on Talk Radio.

soundcloud.com/mirandayardley/miranda-yardley-v-james-whale-talk-radio-10-july-2020/s-VXYcIZRm1Uy

MadBadDaddy · 11/07/2020 20:18

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

In my experience, it gets right up the noses of some people that don't understand it and don't want to. ,,i,

R0wantrees · 11/07/2020 20:38

Ray Blanchard
(Researcher in sexual orientation, paraphilias, & gender identity disorders)

twitter.com/BlanchardPhD

A question for Transmen and Transwomen
Cailleach1 · 11/07/2020 20:42

I know the topic has moved on a little. However, one thing struck me at the beginning. It was said that a transperson was repulsed by the sex characteristics of their body and they wanted the body of the opposite sex. This translated into a transman wearing a prosthetic where external male reproductive organs would be.

I could be wrong, but it strikes me that the body which is reviled and objectified seems to be the female body. The vast majority of transwomen fully retain their male reproductive organs. Do they really have a revulsion for their maleness? They seem to be as proud of their male organs as much as any other bearer of same. Indeed many active transwomen seem happy to prominently portray them or weaponise them. Plus ca change.

So much female time and energy is wasted on body issues and self-consciousness about appearance. Especially at an age where the energy of girls and young women should be focussed on establishing the foundations of their lives on which their future will rest.

Just my viewpoint.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/07/2020 21:05

The only use of the phrase 'conversion therapy' as it relates to trans-issues that I've seen is used by those claiming gay people are being 'converted' into trans so they won't be 'gay' any more, not the other way around.

You're wrong.

Datun · 11/07/2020 21:30

[quote R0wantrees]Ray Blanchard
(Researcher in sexual orientation, paraphilias, & gender identity disorders)

twitter.com/BlanchardPhD[/quote]
Ray Blanchard has studied transwomen and transsexuals for the best part of what is it 30 or 40 years?

MadBadDaddy · 11/07/2020 21:59

AGP/HSTS doesn't really describe anyone I know. And where do trans men fit in?

"A bad idea can bring more acclaim and recognition to its originator than a good idea, if the bad idea is simple (especially if it involves no mathematics), and if it appeals to a wide variety of people."

Datun · 11/07/2020 22:14

There was, a few days ago, a very interesting narrative from a male born individual with AGP Who gave the lowdown from A to Z, with searing honesty. Including why mention of it gets shut down in many places. But, like the 65,000 people on the gender critical Reddit it's since been deleted as can be seen from this link.

However if you, or anyone else of course, wants to know about AGP just check out #GirlsLikeUs, #TransGirls, or alternatively, female embodiment syndrome, sissification, forced femininity, etc. It's not a secret. And is plastered from one end of the Internet to the other.

People will be able to see for themselves whether it includes any transmen, whatsoever.

Warning: may be NSFW.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3953776-Why-r-GenderCritical-was-banned-by-Reddit

R0wantrees · 11/07/2020 22:15

AGP/HSTS doesn't really describe anyone I know.

Many women who identify as 'transwidows' describe the nature of their husband's autogynephilia and the impact this has on them & their children.

Trans Widows Voices website:

"What Is A Trans Widow?

A trans widow is a woman (usually heterosexual) whose male partner or husband believes that they have a gender identity other than “man” or who cross dresses.

Women in this situation report feeling like their male partner has died. This is particularly the case if they decide to transition. The transformation is usually so complete that their partner is unrecognisable as the man they married, both in looks and in personality. The woman will be forbidden from calling her husband by his previous “dead name”.

Women in this situation need a label to gather around and to identify with. “Trans widow” is the name that we have chosen and it is enabling us to find each other." (continues)

www.transwidowsvoices.org/our-voices

R0wantrees · 11/07/2020 22:19

Ray Blanchard has studied transwomen and transsexuals for the best part of what is it 30 or 40 years?

Wiki
"Ray Milton Blanchard ( born October 9, 1945) is an American-Canadian sexologist, best known for his research studies on transsexualism, pedophilia and sexual orientation. He found that men with more older brothers are more likely to be gay than men with fewer older brothers, a phenomenon he attributes to the reaction of the mother's immune system to male fetuses. Blanchard has also published research studies on phallometry and several paraphilias, including autoerotic asphyxia.

He conducted postdoctoral research at Dalhousie University until 1976, when he accepted a position as a clinical psychologist at the Ontario Correctional Institute in Brampton, Ontario, Canada (a suburb of Toronto). There, Blanchard met Kurt Freund, who became his mentor. Freund was conducting research in chemical castration for sex offenders. In 1980, he joined the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry (now part of the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health). In 1995 Blanchard was named Head of Clinical Sexology Services in the Law and Mental Health Programme of the CAMH, where he served until 2010. He is an adjunct Professor of Psychiatry at the University of Toronto. He served on the American Psychiatric Association DSM-IV Subcommittee on Gender Identity Disorders[5] and was named to the DSM-5 committee.

According to Google Scholar, Blanchard's works have been cited more than 12,000 times and he has an h-index of 65" (continues)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Blanchard]]

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