Munroe Bergdorf

[ripples101]

I am trans.

I was a follower of Munroe Bergdorf’s Instagram.

Munroe wrote a post about JK Rowling, calling her a dangerous woman to the trans community. Munroe stayed something along the lines of

“JKR is a dangerous cisgendered, white woman who is causing harm”

I replied to this post, asking why Munroe felt it necessary to mention JK Rowing’s racial identity.

I wasn’t Abusive. I just felt that it wasn’t necessary, in regards to what Munroe was being critical of, to mention JK Rowling’s ethnicity.

Within minutes my post was deleted and I was blocked.

I am trans, and Munroe has silenced me.

So it seems nothing can be questioned. Any intent to ask a question, or to strike up debate, will be met with being silenced.

This is fast turning into propaganda. This is fast turning into thought crime. This is fast turning into silencing. This is fast turning into something it should never have been.

When a trans person isn’t even able to question another trans person, what chance do “people who belong to sex that menstruate”* have?

• Christ, I don’t even feel like I can use the word women here without being controversial.

I am so sorry for people to whom I thought I identified alongside (trans people) who are doing this to you. I feel sick and ashamed of what I am, because of people who are representing me.

I feel like I literally have no space left. And I can’t help but feel that a lot of biological woman are feeling the same way. And you have so much more to lose than I ever will, so I simply can’t imagine how this is making you all feel.

Winesalot: Regarding the timing of JKRs tweets about the word women...

Thank you! I don't even live in Scotland at the moment, and as soon as I saw that Rowling had spoken out, I assumed it was prompted by the Representation of Women on Boards law, and possibly the open consultation on Hate Crimes. I've seen some outrage on Twitter as well, re Rowling's timing - had a chat with some American activists going on about it; they had no clue what was happening in Scotland. So someone could just as easily draw the conclusion that some of Rowling's critics are oblivious/ignoring what's going on in the world.

Also, generally - the UKGov plans to criminalise conversion therapies stem from a commitment made in the 2018 LGBT Action Plan. They define conversion therapies as "attempts to ‘cure’ somebody of their sexual orientation or gender identity". There's supposed to be a third-party investigation going on right now with results to be published - Stonewall has, within the last several weeks, called for the government to prioritise its completion and release. There's a lot of interest and focus on this - even if Rowling somehow has some malevolent intent here (which I've seen no evidence of) it wouldn't be likely to slip under the radar.

Ripples101 - your thread has come a looooooong way from where you started, sorry! All you can really do is find better people to follow on Insta, etc. - nobody HAS to read MB, or anyone else. "Vote with your feet", as they say. Maybe even tell your own story, if you'd like to and can do it safely?

And another one of the Tavistock whistleblowers speaking out:

I also strongly believe that it is GIDS duty to make it known that it is highly unlikely that any child presenting there will be told that they are not transgender. One of my biggest ethical dilemmas whilst working at GIDS was that there were parents who brought their child to GIDS anticipating that we would confirm that the child was not transgender but we are not able to tell parents that actually there is some unspoken rule that means GIDS clinicians do not tell families, “your child is not transgender”.

medium.com/@kirstyentwistle/an-open-letter-to-dr-polly-carmichael-from-a-former-gids-clinician-53c541276b8d

NotBadConsidering I did know that about Jazz Jennings and yes I agree. Medication and surgery given to or performed on minors or young people which will limit their capacity for sexual pleasure throughout their lives should be really, really carefully thought about.

Treatment that is known to affect fertility, like some types of chemotherapy, is only given when the immediate danger to life outweighs the long term side effects. Obviously, that's how medicine works - do no harm.

You're correct that this aspect isn't talked about enough, although I always feel quite uncomfortable discussing intimate information about the lives of real people online. But yes you're right, unless we do that, we're complicit in the gaslighting as to how harmful unnecessary medication and surgery on healthy tissue is.

Of course Bergdorf is lying, why would anyone feminist suggest that infertile women aren't women, it's beyond stupid but Bergdorf is so incensed that the "woman" thing is not going according to plan any old shite will do.

Feminism has no need of a shouty Bergdorf. Unfortunately writing those lies in a magazine aimed at young women puts Bergdorfs stupidity in the firing line. Lying to young people about feminism because of your own irrelevance to it, is going to be critisised, and added to the already substantial resume of blundering.

The idea that feminists, those angry, man-hating, bra-burning [insert other common feminist stereotype here] witches that we are, are trying to tie the idea of womanhood to being fertile and are totally up for gender stereotypes of 50s housewives is ridiculous.

I'd laugh if the deliberate lies weren't so fucking damaging.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The reach she has and the populism she employs and the calculated nature of what she says and how she says it sends a shiver up my spine.

People like you send a shiver down my spine. JK Rowling has the perfect right, like anyone with a platform, to stand up and speak up when she believes something is wrong.

I thought that first paragraph related to Bergdorf.

Bergdorf is no friend to women.

The primary topics of this thread, as described by OP, are race and silencing. and a secondary topic could be the character and thoughts of Monroe B.

For someone to question, in the way the OP did, a reference to 'whiteness', especially by a POC, does not remotely sound like the start of a good-faith exchange and so OP was blocked.
There is nothing shocking or surprising in that. MB was obviously unimpressed with what they quite likely saw as a petty and offensive comment There is something to be learned about racial privilege and the responsibility of POC to educate fragile white people, but it hasn't had much of an airing in the last 500+ messages. I think that is nothing to be proud of, TBH

Maduixa

Far too many posters were shaming women for centering the wrong people at a fraught time. Rather than admitting that people can focus on more than one issue at the same time.

But mostly, rather than acknowledging that the world did NOT stop to focus on their focus of agendas and that if JKR did not address things as they were relevant, she has lost her chance. Therefore, she and ANY women who agree lose their voice. Just as ripple has felt her voice lost by someone positioning themselves as a leader.

To those posters, such as MBD, shall I go through the events that prompted JKR other tweets. Including the vile tweet talking about ovaries and saying ‘GIMME’?

Or as I asked in post, should she leave it all unaddressed because of timing? Oh, and of course we also have the pressure of raising the awareness of getting constituents to write to their MPs to ask them to support single sex spaces and making sure that any treatment for gender dysphoria does NOT cross into gay conversion therapy which is an announcement expected within a week or so.

Please explain how the timing of JKRs tweets are NOT relevant to the impacts of women’s rights?. The rights for ALL females?

(note: this includes employment law, fairness for sports and education, the right to adequate representation on boards, panels and by officials supposedly their to represent women, and the list goes on.) Anyone thinking this entire issue is about single sex spaces is mistaken in their scope.

@MadBadDaddy

BTW I am a trans person, commenting on a thread started by a trans person, relating to what another trans-person has said about a rich, white, billionaire's suitability to be an oracle on trans-people.

JKR also cheats at scrabble. Sue me.

Yes! And this is the exact reason that trans advocacy that centres trans people is needed.

This is a feminist board that centres women. It might not be the best place for the discussions that you want to have to take place.

averysuitablegirl

This is Jazz discussing it with the surgeon as part of an episode of I Am Jazz:

people.com/tv/jazz-jennings-talks-sexual-stuff-orgasm-libido-doctor-before-gender-confirmation-surgery/

You can see that the surgeon knew it was something never experienced but progressed to making it permanent anyway.

And here is Teen Vogue celebrating Jazz discussing it with her parents, likening it to a sneeze, and being led to believe that it will all be ok in the future when she finds someone she’s in love with.

www.teenvogue.com/story/jazz-jennings-talks-to-parents-about-orgasm

Yet to even mention any concern about this is to “campaign to deny trans people health care and literally killing trans people”.

Anyone who doesn’t want to talk about this should be ashamed of what they’re covering up.

And I would mention finally that I have been deleted in the past for discussing sex and mentioning Jazz Jennings, but I would point out to MNHQ that all of this is in the public domain and I would question the motives of those who would report such a post.

So MB can question JKRs qualification to speak for women on women's issues, just because JKR has white privilege and many women are not white?

Even though MB knows fuck all about women's issues?

I would love to hear about all the ways MB has used their platform to elevate and remove oppression for all women, regardless of colour. As MB truly believes they are a woman.

I'm sure someone will help me out with this one.

For someone to question, in the way the OP did, a reference to 'whiteness', especially by a POC, does not remotely sound like the start of a good-faith exchange and so OP was blocked.

so 'good-faith exchange' is now a euphemism for 'complete agreement with every point'. Interesting to flip it around - what if a white person with high profile dismissed the opinions of someone partly because they are black - that is obviously unacceptable and would have rightly been called out. Someone who had made an unnecessary point like that by mistake would have acknowledged the view of the commenter and moved forward. This is a conversation about women and race should not have been shoe horned into the debate especially when it appears to be dismissing the opinions of a woman because she's x, x or x. Sexist much!

MB should realise it will mainly be rich, white people legislating about these issues; there are a lot of rich, white people in parliament.

MB may not like this but it is the reality. Engaging with them rather than trying to silence them would be much more helpful to the trans cause.

As for JK not being a doctor, it may well be better if treating trans kids was left to healthcare professionals and excluded lobby groups like Mermaids.

Another sunlight filled thread.

How many more people are hopping mad that a woman with actual power is speaking.

She must be silenced at all costs. And everyone vehemently told that the only women who are allowed to speak are those with no power, no platform and no voice.

I’m a bit behind with this thread but

It's interesting, isn't it? People who are born a certain sex and do not claim to be a different sex cannot talk about being trans according to certain trans people who claim to represent trans people.

Yes, Agrona, this strikes me over and over again! And as the OP has written here, even trans people can’t challenge the narrative. Women, as we know, are rarely allowed to speak out for ourselves - there’s always some more pressing concern we should be helping with

I learnt the term ‘purity spiral’ on this board - what a useful term that’s turning out to be.

Well I'm certainly not "hopping mad", what is it with all the trying to paint people with differing opinions as "hopping mad" or filled with rage or whatever?
MB on a perfectly normal comment is "hissing venom " oozing contempt" - why do people on here do it?
Really, really not hopping mad or rage filled however much you'd love to think that and try to write it.
Just average person with an opinion.
Sunlight? Yes , just not in the way you think it is.

As for JK not being a doctor, it may well be better if treating trans kids was left to healthcare professionals and excluded lobby groups like Mermaids.

Indeed. Particularly the testimony of the 30 or 40 clinicians who left the Tavistock due to their fears that children were being medicated on the basis of homophobia.

And, more specifically, Sonia Appleby, the safeguarding lead at the Tavistock, who is now suing them on the basis that safeguarding was deliberately ignored.

Indeed. Particularly the testimony of the 30 or 40 clinicians who left the Tavistock due to their fears that children were being medicated on the basis of homophobia.

Yes, I linked to some of their comments about processes and safeguarding upthread. That is pretty much the dictionary definition of gay conversion therapy, isn't it?

Based on language MB has used to describe biological women in the past and the lack of warmth or appreciation toward the woman who offered support in the tweet you refer to I can see why her reply was described in such a way.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Indeed. Particularly the testimony of the 30 or 40 clinicians who left the Tavistock due to their fears that children were being medicated on the basis of homophobia.

Yes, I linked to some of their comments about processes and safeguarding upthread. That is pretty much the dictionary definition of gay conversion therapy, isn't it?

It is.

And I am assuming their testimony will form a part of Sonia Appleby's case.

It will be particularly interesting noting those who try to have it stopped, silenced, cancelled. It's already produced a lot of anger. And I'm sure the government is fully aware of where that's coming from.

That is pretty much the dictionary definition of gay conversion therapy, isn't it?

Yes, it certainly seems so to me.

One of the kids on the puberty blocker trial lost so much bone density in their jaw their teeth started dropping out.

Not harmless. Not reversible.

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong

One of the kids on the puberty blocker trial lost so much bone density in their jaw their teeth started dropping out.

Not harmless. Not reversible.

Bloody hell.

My impressions of what JKR has been writing are that they are disturbing and damaging,

Doesn't this just say it all? Who needs to bother actually reading what she's written before criticising her, multiple times?

JKR's take on the need to support and protect transwomen was 'liked' by Mermaids when attributed to a man. Incidentally.