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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Posie Parker

77 replies

Goldencurtain · 03/07/2020 13:22

Ok, still quite new to this so I really don't know all the ins and outs...was just listening to an old spiked podcast with Posie Parker and Venice (forgotten her surname) and found it really interesting, then went on twitter and found a lot of people criticising them over some drama that I can make no sense of. Could someone fill me in on the reason for people disliking them / give me a balanced view on what's going on?

OP posts:
stumbledin · 03/07/2020 17:05

I think a lot of the reations on here are quite frankly over the top.

Just to speed up your googling OP there is a big division amongst feminists as to whether you should campaign with organisation who have the same attitude to something you believe in as a feminist, such as TWAW, but who on all other grounds you wouldn't go near.

So do you hold your nose and work with right wing christian groups who are anti abortion because they give women a platform to speak out against trans indoctrination, or do you say no I want.

ie WPUK as a primarily socialist feminist group takes a position that you dont.

There are other differences, ie should you work with gender critical trans women or should you say that because you dont believe you can change sex you wont share a platform with a trans woman.

Like any number of campaigns and political aims the end goal may seem the same but how you get there might be different and that might be cruxial - or it might not!

stumbledin · 03/07/2020 17:06

Oh and by the way different political analysis or campaigning is anything but gossip, and that anyone on mumsnet to dumb down these issues as being gossip if astonishing.

TBHno · 03/07/2020 17:11

Louis Theroux has occasionally interviewed Nazis, yet nobody accuses him of promoting Nazism or cuddling up to the far right... I wonder why that is?

Cascade220 · 03/07/2020 17:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Redshoeblueshoe · 03/07/2020 17:14

But with JKRowling being all over the news a lot more people are going WTF ?

Highperbolay · 03/07/2020 17:15

@BentBastard

Some of the responses like this poster is getting here are quite unhelpful.

The success of protection of women's spaces against self ID completely depends upon engagement of people that are currently uneducated about and unfamiliar with the argument. Responses like this will put new people off engaging.

I've been around here (albeit quietly) long enough to know the problems this forum has had with infiltration and "ploppers" but I really think people need to be taken at face value unless they actually say anything offensive otherwise there is no hope of engaging new people and informing them.

Totally agree.
wellbehavedwomen · 03/07/2020 17:17

@stumbledin

I think a lot of the reations on here are quite frankly over the top.

Just to speed up your googling OP there is a big division amongst feminists as to whether you should campaign with organisation who have the same attitude to something you believe in as a feminist, such as TWAW, but who on all other grounds you wouldn't go near.

So do you hold your nose and work with right wing christian groups who are anti abortion because they give women a platform to speak out against trans indoctrination, or do you say no I want.

ie WPUK as a primarily socialist feminist group takes a position that you dont.

There are other differences, ie should you work with gender critical trans women or should you say that because you dont believe you can change sex you wont share a platform with a trans woman.

Like any number of campaigns and political aims the end goal may seem the same but how you get there might be different and that might be cruxial - or it might not!

That's a really good explanation.
TinselAngel · 03/07/2020 17:37

Poise totally gets the issues faced by trans widows and has been very supportive.

Goldencurtain · 03/07/2020 17:46

Thank you for the additional background information, it's helpful to me. Maybe align wasn't quite the right word - I'm not looking for some kind of leader - but I guess I want to be fully informed about whose company I keep, e.g. I know Douglas Murray is supportive, and I know he can also be a bit right wing about immigration.

To those who doubted my intentions, you've had a lot of people being dicks for years so I guess I can't blame you...just through a few weeks of being on twitter... I'm absolutely appalled. But at the same time the thing that pushed me over to start trying to be more active was how I was treated on other groups that were meant to be for women, and I did feel a bit sad to see elements of the same.

If interested, the top 3 things that have pushed me were:

  1. Borrowing another mum's floral sleepsuit for my son after forgetting a change of clothes and she said when he wore it "oh he suits it! Maybe he'll be trans". There I was, dressing him in bunny rabbits and pink thinking gendered stereotypes needed to be defeated. I had no idea things had got so ridiculous that instead of "boys cant wear pink" it had now moved into "if boys wear pink they must be a girl"
  2. Going on an 'Evidence Based birthing' group after trying to process a traumatic birth and having my comment deleted and then banned after suggesting that calling women 'birthers' was dehumanising
  3. Joining a menstrual cup group because my insides are fucked and it took 2 days to get over the pain of putting in a tampon after my first post childbirth period. And then seeing whole swathes of comments deleted on a pro-trans post (the rules were you couldn't get even refer to 'women'). My comment in support stating it wasn't hate speech and I wasn't an evil person for thinking that gender stereotypes aren't true was also deleted.

These may seem like small things to those of you that have been involved for years, but I found it so personally hurtful and also really scary. Scary how mainstream it has become and pretty terrifying how dissent is not even debated; it's deleted.

OP posts:
MrsWooster · 03/07/2020 17:47

I find myself increasingly stripping things back to fundamentals: is it(eg a Twitter post) pro women’s rights? Does it protect children? Does it respect humanity? If so, I like it even if it’s someone who is otherwise alien to my values. When women’s rights are secure, I will probably never interact with these people again, unless it’s in opposition.

SciFiScream · 03/07/2020 17:49

You'll have to make your own mind up. I don't entirely know what's going on with all the various different personalities.

I know none of them personally

While they all work to centre women in the best way they each know how I will do my best to support and follow.

If they ever stop centring women, then I'll stop supporting and following them.

Datun · 03/07/2020 17:51

OP do an advanced search on here with Posie's name. You will see all her campaigns, comments about her being interviewed by the police for stating facts, and, recently transactivists hoping her children get Covid and die or suffer the same fate as Jamie Bulger.

I'm sure you can work out, for yourself, whether or not Posie is worth supporting. Or, given what information is freely available about her, why she gets threatened so often.

What I doubt you will get is people speculating about why certain women fall out with one another.

I tend to think it's because they are human. Just like men.

picklemewalnuts · 03/07/2020 17:55

@Goldencurtain, you've had similar experiences to many of us, don't let the edginess of the discussion get you down.

There have at times been 'Down with Posie' flurries and 'Down with (insert name here)' parties.

As time has gone on it's become clearer that it has to be bigger than individuals. They have their issues with each other, and some of them support things I disagree with.

They are still worth listening to!

OldeMagick · 03/07/2020 17:56

Thanks @JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown that video never gets old Grin

Datun · 03/07/2020 17:57

Op, this video should give you an insight into the kind of woman Posie Parker is.

RuffleCrow · 03/07/2020 18:11

At the end of the day, OP, you're going to be your own shero. Listen to a wide range of voices, take what appeals to you as useful, leave what doesn't.

The nice thing about being GC is that you only really have to believe that

A) women are adult human females and

B) that female people have, and should continue to have, the right to meet without the presence of male people.

And

C) that putting children on a pathway to life altering medical treatment, surgery and infertility is something which should be subject to the utmost scrutiny and avoided if at all possible.

The rest is up to you. Think of it like jazz music, whereas being a TRA is more like the worst piece of 90s techno - only four words repeated til you feel sick.

FantaOra · 03/07/2020 18:13

Venice Allen is a great character too, she organised some of the very first meetings, including one at the House of Commons which was fantastic.

Venice exposed a lot of the ridiculous hypocrisy at the heart of Labour over this, there is a great transcript around of a ludicrous disciplinary meeting held to convict her of thought crimes. I think the left have murdered in cold blood the loyalty of many people over this and so the left sanctimony over right wing involvement looks pretty hollow in that respect.

All political parties have behaved naively at a minimum, and all parties now have women's groups that have come together over this, Women Uniting.

This is beyond being a party issue.

FantaOra · 03/07/2020 18:17

Here's the transcript on Miranda's site

mirandayardley.com/en/the-labour-party-is-no-longer-safe-place-for-women-venice-allan/

Bloggs123 · 03/07/2020 18:24

Goldencurtain you don’t need to keep anyone’s company or to be part of a ‘group’. This isn’t a club or a gang. It’s women who have the same thought process who talk to each other and walk the same path.

This isn’t a figure head or a leader. Just stick on the fem boards and see where the posts take you.

JellyFishSquish · 03/07/2020 18:28

So sorry about what you have been through OP Flowers

These may seem like small things to those of you that have been involved for years, but I found it so personally hurtful and also really scary. Scary how mainstream it has become and pretty terrifying how dissent is not even debated; it's deleted

Women are silenced. Yes, it is scary.

RadandMad · 03/07/2020 19:14

Well, PP was instrumental on waking me up to GC politics. I don't agree with her on everything, but I admire her hugely. She has enormous courage.

wellbehavedwomen · 03/07/2020 19:36

@Goldencurtain

Thank you for the additional background information, it's helpful to me. Maybe align wasn't quite the right word - I'm not looking for some kind of leader - but I guess I want to be fully informed about whose company I keep, e.g. I know Douglas Murray is supportive, and I know he can also be a bit right wing about immigration.

To those who doubted my intentions, you've had a lot of people being dicks for years so I guess I can't blame you...just through a few weeks of being on twitter... I'm absolutely appalled. But at the same time the thing that pushed me over to start trying to be more active was how I was treated on other groups that were meant to be for women, and I did feel a bit sad to see elements of the same.

If interested, the top 3 things that have pushed me were:

  1. Borrowing another mum's floral sleepsuit for my son after forgetting a change of clothes and she said when he wore it "oh he suits it! Maybe he'll be trans". There I was, dressing him in bunny rabbits and pink thinking gendered stereotypes needed to be defeated. I had no idea things had got so ridiculous that instead of "boys cant wear pink" it had now moved into "if boys wear pink they must be a girl"
  2. Going on an 'Evidence Based birthing' group after trying to process a traumatic birth and having my comment deleted and then banned after suggesting that calling women 'birthers' was dehumanising
  3. Joining a menstrual cup group because my insides are fucked and it took 2 days to get over the pain of putting in a tampon after my first post childbirth period. And then seeing whole swathes of comments deleted on a pro-trans post (the rules were you couldn't get even refer to 'women'). My comment in support stating it wasn't hate speech and I wasn't an evil person for thinking that gender stereotypes aren't true was also deleted.

These may seem like small things to those of you that have been involved for years, but I found it so personally hurtful and also really scary. Scary how mainstream it has become and pretty terrifying how dissent is not even debated; it's deleted.

It's very frightening, isn't it. The totalitarian silencing of women, the aggressive misogyny under the most skimpy of figleaves, with apparently intelligent women who claim to be feminists meekly genuflecting to male people insisting they are far better placed to determine what a woman is.

I don't know how the hell we are in a place where a genuine wish to be kind to people with a rare identity disorder, so they could live happy, fulfilled lives, has ended with aggressive women-hating misogynists seeking to erase us as a legal entity, erase our access to single sex spaces, sports, political representation... altering even our crime recording. It's all well and good people scoffing at the latter, but given 3 years ago there were 60 transwomen sex offenders and only just over double that number women, how is it arguable? That would be a 50% increase in offending, and it wouldn't be natal women responsible at all. Yet in many police forces now they accept self ID in crime reporting.

The whole thing is a cross between Orwell and The Handmaid's Tale. And it's all happening by stealth - people have no idea that it is, and that is actually entirely intentional. It's a strategic decision to silence everyone while they indoctrinate kids into a belief system their parents do not share.

The best thing we can do, really, and sadly, is find women who feel as we do, and work together. Sometimes, people will fall out, men and women alike. Personalities clash. But I don't care who likes whom. I care that this essential work is done - and I should add that I welcome the kind, sane voices of a lot of trans people who are appalled at what is being done in their name, and completely acknowledge the impact of sex, and sexism, on our lives.

It's painful. None of us want to be here. Nobody likes being demonised, but sadly, women have always been demonised when defending women's rights, including by other women, because men have more power. That's how this shitfest has been snuck in, behind our backs and when our guard was down, because we thought these battles had already been won.

Women are a sex class. Men are a sex class. The argument that some small studies indicate that some transwomen, after a considerable time (and medical interventions, and without controlling for sexuality) have some similarities to our brains is a red herring. If it weren't, they'd not bother with psychiatric interventions before starting treatment: they'd simply scan brains. None of it - NONE of it - makes a lick of sense.

It's very frightening, isn't it. But this is actually what most women think. What they know. And there are so, so many of us, and when we unite, we can achieve a lot - look at what has already been achieved, in terms of insisting our existing rights remain protected, and we don't lose more. Thanks to Maya Forstater and Allison Bailey and many, many more we may find our freedom of speech is restored to us sometime soon. Because this ideology really makes no sense. And that is precisely why the aggressive, hateful attempts to silence us are happening: because when people point out the Emperor is naked, others start to see it, too.

MindTheMinotaur · 03/07/2020 19:58

Flowers OP you appear to have walked into two shitstorms online unwittingly. Sorry you had those experiences.

Many of us have had the comfort and support of each other here when speaking out, or at least we've known what we're getting ourselves into

It's good here a lot of the time and I'm glad you've stuck around and come back.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/07/2020 20:23

Goldencurtain Thanks I agree it's really upsetting to have language you need policed in that way.

TehBewilderness · 03/07/2020 20:29

@Goldencurtain

It's not that TRA were criticising her, it was other GC people on twitter, hence my desire to understand more.

Look I'm new to this, with a little screaming baby, and I read stuff bleary eyed whilst he naps. I'm not looking to be goady. I'm just fully aware that as I'm only just starting to learn about different gender critical feminists (indeed only just realising I am one) I don't want to naively align myself to particular individuals that perhaps I shouldn't, due to not knowing the background.

Your expectation of yourself is unrealistic. Women are going to act like people come hell or high water. Because we are people. Accepting that is hard work but essential. While all Feminists are gender critical not all gender critical women are Feminists. Right wing women love and protect their children too. So we are going to be in agreement on some things and diametrically opposed to others. Because that is what people do.