Dr Jordan Peterson

[12boo]

I believe I am a feminist
But I seem to be a fan of Jordan Peterson. Are these states totally incompatible?

demonstrated their arguments: the last two words got lost!

@Kantastic

... the name in question being "fella."

#I'm just a guy who can't... hear... no#

The name in question being 'pompous arsehole' which you repeated in two separate posts.

I've already told you I'm not a fella or a guy. I'm female. It's a reference to two of Adrian Dunbar's catchphrases on Line of Duty - 'sucking diesel' and 'fella'.

There's nothing hard to understand about 'I'm not a fella'.

And yet you're finding it incredibly difficult...

[quote Shawbles]It's about evidence base. What evidence does he have for this assertion? I would wager that he has none. Show me the studies

I'd wager that a tenured prof at a senior Canadian university, who has also taught at Harvard, has a lot more evidence of this assertion than you. I'd also wager that if it weren't true, there would be plenty of people lining up evidence to the contrary - it's not like he has been short of detractors in the media.

How do you rate 'disagreeableness' in women? Is there a Peterson scale of disagreeableness where 1 = will suck dick for truckers and 10 = will shank you if you mention the washing up

He did an interview with a senior editor at the Economist who expressed incredulity about "how can you measure X? (unfortunately I forget what it was)" and in a bout 30 seconds, the psychologist explained to the lay person (economist/journalist - and one who was almost painfully stupid throughout the entire interview) exactly how they do it. It's not too much of a blow to the ego to recognise that there are plenty of educated people out there who know plenty more about plenty of subjects than you or I do...

[/quote] Watched through to find it - 47 minutes in "where's the data on innuendo and gossip!?".

Thank you all for engaging
I'm still loving him tbh
Increasingly so

I think you can argue that about makeup for example, I think that's a really simplistic approach to the reasons women use makeup.

And by the way @Kantastic I had to add 'fella' on the end because 'suckingdiesel' was already taken.

Please do not @ me. Thank you.

Fragility

@NonnyMouse1337

For instance, I saw a lecture where he claimed that women who truly didn't want children were rare and tended to be disagreeable. Poisonous nonsense to say it to a room full of students, even if you think it

Why is it poisonous nonsense? I don't know the studies linked to such a statement, but I wouldn't find such an observation surprising. The vast majority of women desire to have children (men as well). It is the whole point of evolution and therefore our species will be naturally inclined towards such goals.
Women have more options and freedom these days, and many put off having children until older. Some might be undecided and eventually change their minds either for or against motherhood. Some unfortunately won't be able to have children due to various reasons and circumstances.

I have never wanted children. I've 'known' this from a very early age. It's difficult to describe, but I guess it's the complete opposite of those women who say they have always known they wanted to be mothers. I have always known motherhood was not for me. Never wavered or wondered or been undecided. I think women like myself are extremely rare as I haven't come across others like me very often. I have never changed my mind, despite being told this is what normally happens.

There is a lot of internal and external pressure on women to have children, therefore to be very secure in your decision to not have any (and not waver or be undecided) requires a certain mindset - a level of disagreeableness if you will. I've been very upfront with all the men I've dated that I never wanted children. Absolutely not. Take it or leave it. I don't think many women would be as hard-line about it like that.

In addition to what noonymouse says, the conversation on the Caitlin Moran thread suggest many of us suspect our fertility hormones may have had a softening effect on us, made us more tolerant/agreeable.

Women who do not want children may be less influenced by those hormones, and be seen as less agreeable as a result.

That's not to say it's acceptable.

@Kantastic

Please do not @ me. Thank you.

Thanks for the apology and the admission that you made a mistake.

Oh no, wait...

Women's personalities change more than men's as we age. Agreeableness and neuroticism reduce.

There is data to show this (in we are still allowed to use that)

There isn't necessarily an explanation for these changes, but high estrogen in young women may make sense.

@Dervel

I’m not sure that’s entirely true as Peterson has done a lot of work with female clients to help them increase their trait disagreeableness in order to better negotiate position/wages in context of their professional life. So whilst he may believe there may be an innate component, women can certainly learn skills to improve it.

Petersen observes women are more innately more agreeable in society today- that's a combination of nature and nurture. There is a hormonal element at play as well as the impact of generations of socialisation.

@BaronessBrighterThanYou

Oh no they don't

Oh yes they do.

Finally caught up. So interesting.

The thing about make up, is the current societal expectation and the underlying purpose.

Women are currently 'supposed' to be sexually attractive- to make no effort makes you somehow sub par. Women are seen as friendlier when wearing red lipstick if I remember correctly.

Wearing makeup helps women be more successful at work.
Wearing makeup mimics arousal.

But at the same time we don't want sexual behaviours at work.

So women are once again caught in the crossfire of conflicting expectations.

Maybe the KPop (?) movement of men and women wearing 'perfecting' makeup may help shift this a bit.

practically everything is academically referenced.

That doesn't mean he's using it in context. A criticism is that he isn't, or doesn't always understand the theory he's quoting because he constantly strays outside his field of expertise. The conclusions and extrapolations he assumes must be the case, based on the rather random nugget of data quoted, are often not self evident (or impartial) at all. He thinks out loud but talks like he's made his mind up, causing others to believe he has more certainty and 'proof' than he does. This is aggravating for real experts in whatever field he's currently dabbling in. No doubt that he's very clever but he over reaches.

I'd like to see the evidence that women are less agreeable as they age due to the reduction of 'female' hormones.

I've seen this idea twice over the weekend, from Caitlin Moran and Jenny Éclair.

Both are flogging books about the menopause.

I think there are some truths in what 096 is saying about over reach, I think it may also have contributed to what has happened to him, I am not sure being seen as a guru is good for anyone.

Can you like him and be a feminist? You mean, the man who thought and wrote this in his book about one of his own clients who said “I think I’ve been raped”.

How else to understand “I think”? But that wasn’t the end of the story. She added an extra detail: “Five times.” The first sentence was awful enough, but the second produced something unfathomable. Five times? What could that possibly mean? My client told me that she would go to a bar and have a few drinks. Someone would start to talk with her. She would end up at his place or her place with him. The evening would proceed, inevitably, to its sexual climax. The next day she would wake up, uncertain about what happened — uncertain about her motives, uncertain about his motives, and uncertain about the world.

Miss S, we’ll call her, was vague to the point of non-existence. She was a ghost of a person. She dressed, however, like a professional. She knew how to present herself, for first appearances … Miss S knew nothing about herself. She knew nothing about other individuals. She knew nothing about the world. She was a movie played out of focus. And she was desperately waiting for a story about herself to make it all make sense.

I mean, really? No, if you think this man deserves the sort of praise heaped on him on this thread, you should seriously consider whether you are a feminist. The mental gymnastics shown in this thread excusing his bullshit would make a TRA blush.

What the hell is going on here lately?

@Langsdestiny

I think you can argue that about makeup for example, I think that's a really simplistic approach to the reasons women use makeup.

Put it a bit differently - make-up is gendered in our culture, wearing it at all, or wearing it in particular ways. As such, it's largely about emphasising one's femaleness as opposed to maleness.

Individuals might wear it for all kinds of individual reasons, but that's it's cultural role.

The reason humans overall are interested in social signals that emphasise their sexed differences is because we are really interested in sex. It's pretty deep-seated because it's so important to our survival as a species. It's very difficult to make people not notice sex, and even so many people, especially when younger, have a real interest in emphasising it.

But if we want a workplace that de-emphasises, as much as possible, sex differences, doesn't that suggest that we should avoid anything that draws attention to our sex?

My feeling is that would be a complicated proposition, but then we'd have to ask to what the implications of that are. Some cultures have thought that men and women - again, at the whole society level - essentially can't work together without sex getting in the way and so it should be avoided in various ways. Interestingly, when #MeToo was big, I saw some suggestions from some women that seemed to parallel that thinking.

@Deathgrip

Can you like him and be a feminist? You mean, the man who thought and wrote this in his book about one of his own clients who said “I think I’ve been raped”.

How else to understand “I think”? But that wasn’t the end of the story. She added an extra detail: “Five times.” The first sentence was awful enough, but the second produced something unfathomable. Five times? What could that possibly mean? My client told me that she would go to a bar and have a few drinks. Someone would start to talk with her. She would end up at his place or her place with him. The evening would proceed, inevitably, to its sexual climax. The next day she would wake up, uncertain about what happened — uncertain about her motives, uncertain about his motives, and uncertain about the world.

Miss S, we’ll call her, was vague to the point of non-existence. She was a ghost of a person. She dressed, however, like a professional. She knew how to present herself, for first appearances … Miss S knew nothing about herself. She knew nothing about other individuals. She knew nothing about the world. She was a movie played out of focus. And she was desperately waiting for a story about herself to make it all make sense.

I mean, really? No, if you think this man deserves the sort of praise heaped on him on this thread, you should seriously consider whether you are a feminist. The mental gymnastics shown in this thread excusing his bullshit would make a TRA blush.

What the hell is going on here lately?

You have a different theory about this situation?

@Deathgrip

Can you like him and be a feminist? You mean, the man who thought and wrote this in his book about one of his own clients who said “I think I’ve been raped”.

How else to understand “I think”? But that wasn’t the end of the story. She added an extra detail: “Five times.” The first sentence was awful enough, but the second produced something unfathomable. Five times? What could that possibly mean? My client told me that she would go to a bar and have a few drinks. Someone would start to talk with her. She would end up at his place or her place with him. The evening would proceed, inevitably, to its sexual climax. The next day she would wake up, uncertain about what happened — uncertain about her motives, uncertain about his motives, and uncertain about the world.

Miss S, we’ll call her, was vague to the point of non-existence. She was a ghost of a person. She dressed, however, like a professional. She knew how to present herself, for first appearances … Miss S knew nothing about herself. She knew nothing about other individuals. She knew nothing about the world. She was a movie played out of focus. And she was desperately waiting for a story about herself to make it all make sense.

I mean, really? No, if you think this man deserves the sort of praise heaped on him on this thread, you should seriously consider whether you are a feminist. The mental gymnastics shown in this thread excusing his bullshit would make a TRA blush.

What the hell is going on here lately?

I'm really sorry I'm not sure I understand the post, or what he was saying or what the woman was saying I hadn't known that he wrote this and I'm not sure I get it

@Deathgrip

Can you like him and be a feminist? You mean, the man who thought and wrote this in his book about one of his own clients who said “I think I’ve been raped”.

How else to understand “I think”? But that wasn’t the end of the story. She added an extra detail: “Five times.” The first sentence was awful enough, but the second produced something unfathomable. Five times? What could that possibly mean? My client told me that she would go to a bar and have a few drinks. Someone would start to talk with her. She would end up at his place or her place with him. The evening would proceed, inevitably, to its sexual climax. The next day she would wake up, uncertain about what happened — uncertain about her motives, uncertain about his motives, and uncertain about the world.

Miss S, we’ll call her, was vague to the point of non-existence. She was a ghost of a person. She dressed, however, like a professional. She knew how to present herself, for first appearances … Miss S knew nothing about herself. She knew nothing about other individuals. She knew nothing about the world. She was a movie played out of focus. And she was desperately waiting for a story about herself to make it all make sense.

I mean, really? No, if you think this man deserves the sort of praise heaped on him on this thread, you should seriously consider whether you are a feminist. The mental gymnastics shown in this thread excusing his bullshit would make a TRA blush.

What the hell is going on here lately?

I'm really sorry I'm not sure I understand the post, or what he was saying or what the woman was saying I hadn't known that he wrote this and I'm not sure I get it

Deathgrip can you unpack your issue with that passage? I'm reluctant to jump in without being quite sure what you are getting at.

I'll jump in feet first before the explanation, for my own amusement.

I suspect Deathgrip is upset that a woman has reported that she "thinks she has been raped. Five times." and JP has not shown anything other than 100% support and reassurance that she is a strong woman who has absolutely, definitely, been raped by men. Mean, misogynous men. Probably mean misogynous white men, but I'm over-reaching there, even by the standards of my already excessive guesswork. But definitely Deathgrip is upset that he has not spent time roundly condemning the men.

who has absolutely, definitely, been raped by men - I initially put "taken advantage" of, but then replaced it by raped as I think she definitely was taken advantage of, but I think the point that JP was making is that she was in a position to be taken advantage of by her total lack of understand of herself and how she was living her life (this may not be correct, I can't remember the context of the paragrapsh), and that this was meant to chime in with his general idea of "pay attention to yourself, take responsibility for yourself, otherwise you greatly increase the riskof awful stuff happening to you".

As a post-menopausal woman (sample size 1!) I don't know whether I've grown more disagreeable but I've certainly grown less tolerant of bs generally and more likely to say so more clearly and quickly than I once might have. How much of this is down to hormonal changes and how much is down to having had more power to wield in the workplace and less anxiety about what other people thought I couldn't say. I'm still as kind, nurturing, patient and generous as I ever was - possibly more - but I don't have as much time or inclination to put up with unnecessary drama, synthetic outrage or fabricated nonsense as I might once have had.